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Post by benziger on May 21, 2020 21:05:48 GMT
It is regarded as the most expensive film in German film history: "Jim Knopf und Lukas der Lokomotivführer" based on the children's book by Michael Ende of 1960. It was released in the cinemas in spring 2018 (foto), and in the run-up to the release the producer spoke about the difficult search for financing. "Why is this kid black?", potential Chinese investors would have asked. Even in Hollywood, they said, "Couldn't Jim be white?" The boy with the black skin as an active hero was the absolute exception in German-language children's books of the 1960s. And although "Jim Knopf" was written under the sign of humanism and one character in it even makes a downright inflammatory speech against racism, some black parents find Franz Josef Tripp's illustrations (below) so clichéd and, yes, racist that the book disappeared from some American school libraries. What must children's books look like today? (2018, movie) (1960, book) Even in Germany and Switzerland, school classes are much more heterogeneous than in the sixties. According to figures for 2017, the proportion of foreign-language children in kindergartens in the canton (state) of Basel-Stadt was 49 percent, and 59 percent of children of Swiss nationality. In primary school, 51 percent of children were foreign-language speakers, 62 percent were Swiss. In the town of Zurich, around 74 percent of Swiss kindergarteners were registered in 2017, 41 percent did not have German as their first language. In Zurich primary school, Swiss children made up about 75 percent in the town and canton; 59 percent had German as their first language. In kindergartens and primary schools in the canton of Berne, the proportion of Swiss children in the 2016/17 school year ranged between 81 and 82 percent. In other words, in some places around one in three children have a background that requires them to have a high level of adaptive ability, if only linguistically. Is this reality of life reflected in current children's books? And do they address the phenomenon of foreign origin without portraying children with a migration background as victims in need of help? This is a subject of intense research, and a new British study entitled "Reflecting Realities" has identified serious deficits, at least in the UK. In 2017, around a quarter of the children in the classrooms of public primary schools there were coloured children and 8 percent foreign whites. More than 9000 children's books were published in the same year. Only 1 percent of them featured a black figure or a child from an ethnic minority as a hero or heroine. Even as a secondary figure, they were represented by only 4 percent. If such characters existed at all, the book was often explicitly praised as problem-oriented, for example under the heading "social justice". Only one of these books was considered a comedy. Is the children's book in Switzerland in a similar predicament? And does the children's book today play a major role at all in the formation of a consolidated self-image, as the excitement about politically incorrect children's book characters suggests? I asked Elisabeth Eggenberger, editor of the specialist magazine "Buch&Maus" from the Swiss Institute for Child and Youth Media (SIKJM). Ms Eggenberger, how formative are children's book characters for young readers?That is difficult to measure. Basically, however, children are constantly occupied with identity formation, and it is not only books that have a great influence - but also children's books. How much world knowledge small children gain from picture books alone! For example, when a child names animals in a hidden object book that he has never seen in reality. Children's books thus play an enormous role in the development process. There have been studies according to which girls of kindergarten age who have had books with non-traditional role models read to them, then ventured out of the traditional roles in role plays. In any case, children learn through stories to empathize with other characters, to empathize with feelings: This also supports the growing together of heterogeneous kindergarten and school classes. Where does the children's book stand in comparison to other media?Books still play a leading role from early childhood until well into primary school. In contrast to TV and apps, they enable dialogical, intimate situations between adults and children, which are very helpful for the development of language, relationship skills and empathy. At school age, books - not the same for all children - are still frequently consumed, just think of all the fans of serial literature. Reading moments are an important factor in the development of their own fantasies. Are there really only a few children's books with heroes that are not white? What about diversity otherwise?This is true for both the British and the German-speaking book market: children from other cultural backgrounds or with a migration background are present less frequently. On the other hand, it is noticeable that the strong girl characters in particular have caught up. It is more difficult with differentiated boy characters. There are also LGBTI topics, admittedly primarily in youth literature, but far less often in picture books and children's books. But it is on the rise. With almost 9000 new publications, the German-speaking market is highly differentiated. What is it like with Swiss publishers?With Baobab, Switzerland has a - small - publishing house that has taken up the cause of representing other cultures in children's and young people's literature, publishing children's books from Asia, Latin America and Africa. However, this is only about four books per year. Very helpful is the Baobab brochure "Kolibri", which recommends new children's books from all publishing houses that meet the Baobab criteria of value diversity, dialogue, respect and equality. And the young publishing house Dabux, which aims to appeal specifically to young people with reading difficulties, encourages the authors - all from Switzerland - to describe the local environment of the young people. The books thus also include teenagers with a migration background. Of course, the other publishers also occasionally have a book on such issues in their range. But most books have white protagonists - or no human figures at all. Even with Swiss authors?They pay special attention to the representation of children with a migration background, it seems to me. Ever since the first wave of migration in the 1960s, as in Eveline Hasler's "Come again, Pepino! Often other migration groups are represented than in German books. There they are (in German books) often Turkish, Russian and newly Syrian children, in this country (Switzerland) today rather Albanian, Portuguese. What is their typical role?Often there is still a problem at the centre: flight, the disruption between two cultures, the difficult integration. Increasingly, however, diversity is a self-evident part of the stories, for example that the protagonist's best friend is Muslim or that the children are from different cultural backgrounds - without this becoming a major theme. In the new picture book by Swiss illustrator Francesca Sanna, "Go away, Mr. Berg!" (Atlantis), the child has a dark skin colour without any reference to it. That this still surprises us speaks volumes. Is the native white child always the helper?This is indeed a familiar pattern. You have to look closely: What about the "foreign" child's power of action? Does it develop its own solutions to problems? Is his or her culture only being problematised or is the "other" identity also being shown as a resource? Does integration succeed only through an exceptional performance by the child, or is it unconditional? The fact that a foreign child is present is not enough. As an offer of identification, it must by no means be only the weak! Recently, there have been many children's books on the subject of flight that were not written carefully enough. For example, Paul Maars "Neben mir ist noch Platz" was reprinted, in which a German girl helps a Syrian one. The cover showed how the blonde girl pulls the dark-haired one onto a wall. This is symbolic of how many such stories work. In the meantime the publisher has reacted: The girls sit side by side on the wall. (New version) (first version) Do you have a counterexample?Like the picture book "Nusret and the Cow" (Tulipan). The parents of a Kosovar boy want to catch up with him, to Germany or Switzerland. He finds it difficult to say goodbye to his grandparents and comes up with the solution to take their cow with him. She helps him as a transitional object in his new home until she is no longer needed. The boy's emotional world is at the centre; he solves his problem himself. Are children's book classics in which the word "negro" appears a problem?Classics are more likely to be read out loud than the child being left alone with them. Such frictions are wonderful occasions for conversation. It's also important to differentiate: "Jim Knopf", for example, has a basic idea that makes people understand each other, only now and then it seems clichéd how Michael Ende presents it. You can absorb that. But you can put away books with clearly outdated ideology - and reach for new ones!
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on May 21, 2020 22:12:13 GMT
Herr Benziger,
Part of the issue regarding ethnicity in children's books [and movies based on same] often ties back to what adults were taught in early childhood, hence the dearth of children's books today where a POC [Person of Color] or otherwise non-dominant member of society is the protagonist.
Have things gotten better since 1960? Yes. Is there still a way to go in children's fiction regarding children of varying ethnic backgrounds being portrayed as valued members of society? Yes.
Part of the issue is change and how people are taught [by parents, society, and or experience] to react to it.
Another part of the issue is understanding that migration in and of itself doesn't cause a society's problems, rather migration [when it's seen as a problem] serves to illuminate problems that already existed.
I could go on, but let me say it's good to see there are people who are committed to helping children [whether "white" or other ethnicities] see themselves as capable individuals.
Ich danke Ihnen für das Teilen.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 12:57:40 GMT
It is regarded as the most expensive film in German film history: "Jim Knopf und Lukas der Lokomotivführer" based on the children's book by Michael Ende of 1960. It was released in the cinemas in spring 2018 (foto), and in the run-up to the release the producer spoke about the difficult search for financing. "Why is this kid black?", potential Chinese investors would have asked. Even in Hollywood, they said, "Couldn't Jim be white?" The boy with the black skin as an active hero was the absolute exception in German-language children's books of the 1960s. And although "Jim Knopf" was written under the sign of humanism and one character in it even makes a downright inflammatory speech against racism, some black parents find Franz Josef Tripp's illustrations (below) so clichéd and, yes, racist that the book disappeared from some American school libraries. What must children's books look like today? (2018, movie) (1960, book) Even in Germany and Switzerland, school classes are much more heterogeneous than in the sixties. According to figures for 2017, the proportion of foreign-language children in kindergartens in the canton (state) of Basel-Stadt was 49 percent, and 59 percent of children of Swiss nationality. In primary school, 51 percent of children were foreign-language speakers, 62 percent were Swiss. In the town of Zurich, around 74 percent of Swiss kindergarteners were registered in 2017, 41 percent did not have German as their first language. In Zurich primary school, Swiss children made up about 75 percent in the town and canton; 59 percent had German as their first language. In kindergartens and primary schools in the canton of Berne, the proportion of Swiss children in the 2016/17 school year ranged between 81 and 82 percent. In other words, in some places around one in three children have a background that requires them to have a high level of adaptive ability, if only linguistically. Is this reality of life reflected in current children's books? And do they address the phenomenon of foreign origin without portraying children with a migration background as victims in need of help? This is a subject of intense research, and a new British study entitled "Reflecting Realities" has identified serious deficits, at least in the UK. In 2017, around a quarter of the children in the classrooms of public primary schools there were coloured children and 8 percent foreign whites. More than 9000 children's books were published in the same year. Only 1 percent of them featured a black figure or a child from an ethnic minority as a hero or heroine. Even as a secondary figure, they were represented by only 4 percent. If such characters existed at all, the book was often explicitly praised as problem-oriented, for example under the heading "social justice". Only one of these books was considered a comedy. Is the children's book in Switzerland in a similar predicament? And does the children's book today play a major role at all in the formation of a consolidated self-image, as the excitement about politically incorrect children's book characters suggests? I asked Elisabeth Eggenberger, editor of the specialist magazine "Buch&Maus" from the Swiss Institute for Child and Youth Media (SIKJM). Ms Eggenberger, how formative are children's book characters for young readers?That is difficult to measure. Basically, however, children are constantly occupied with identity formation, and it is not only books that have a great influence - but also children's books. How much world knowledge small children gain from picture books alone! For example, when a child names animals in a hidden object book that he has never seen in reality. Children's books thus play an enormous role in the development process. There have been studies according to which girls of kindergarten age who have had books with non-traditional role models read to them, then ventured out of the traditional roles in role plays. In any case, children learn through stories to empathize with other characters, to empathize with feelings: This also supports the growing together of heterogeneous kindergarten and school classes. Where does the children's book stand in comparison to other media?Books still play a leading role from early childhood until well into primary school. In contrast to TV and apps, they enable dialogical, intimate situations between adults and children, which are very helpful for the development of language, relationship skills and empathy. At school age, books - not the same for all children - are still frequently consumed, just think of all the fans of serial literature. Reading moments are an important factor in the development of their own fantasies. Are there really only a few children's books with heroes that are not white? What about diversity otherwise?This is true for both the British and the German-speaking book market: children from other cultural backgrounds or with a migration background are present less frequently. On the other hand, it is noticeable that the strong girl characters in particular have caught up. It is more difficult with differentiated boy characters. There are also LGBTI topics, admittedly primarily in youth literature, but far less often in picture books and children's books. But it is on the rise. With almost 9000 new publications, the German-speaking market is highly differentiated. What is it like with Swiss publishers?With Baobab, Switzerland has a - small - publishing house that has taken up the cause of representing other cultures in children's and young people's literature, publishing children's books from Asia, Latin America and Africa. However, this is only about four books per year. Very helpful is the Baobab brochure "Kolibri", which recommends new children's books from all publishing houses that meet the Baobab criteria of value diversity, dialogue, respect and equality. And the young publishing house Dabux, which aims to appeal specifically to young people with reading difficulties, encourages the authors - all from Switzerland - to describe the local environment of the young people. The books thus also include teenagers with a migration background. Of course, the other publishers also occasionally have a book on such issues in their range. But most books have white protagonists - or no human figures at all. Even with Swiss authors?They pay special attention to the representation of children with a migration background, it seems to me. Ever since the first wave of migration in the 1960s, as in Eveline Hasler's "Come again, Pepino! Often other migration groups are represented than in German books. There they are (in German books) often Turkish, Russian and newly Syrian children, in this country (Switzerland) today rather Albanian, Portuguese. What is their typical role?Often there is still a problem at the centre: flight, the disruption between two cultures, the difficult integration. Increasingly, however, diversity is a self-evident part of the stories, for example that the protagonist's best friend is Muslim or that the children are from different cultural backgrounds - without this becoming a major theme. In the new picture book by Swiss illustrator Francesca Sanna, "Go away, Mr. Berg!" (Atlantis), the child has a dark skin colour without any reference to it. That this still surprises us speaks volumes. Is the native white child always the helper?This is indeed a familiar pattern. You have to look closely: What about the "foreign" child's power of action? Does it develop its own solutions to problems? Is his or her culture only being problematised or is the "other" identity also being shown as a resource? Does integration succeed only through an exceptional performance by the child, or is it unconditional? The fact that a foreign child is present is not enough. As an offer of identification, it must by no means be only the weak! Recently, there have been many children's books on the subject of flight that were not written carefully enough. For example, Paul Maars "Neben mir ist noch Platz" was reprinted, in which a German girl helps a Syrian one. The cover showed how the blonde girl pulls the dark-haired one onto a wall. This is symbolic of how many such stories work. In the meantime the publisher has reacted: The girls sit side by side on the wall. (New version) (first version) Do you have a counterexample?Like the picture book "Nusret and the Cow" (Tulipan). The parents of a Kosovar boy want to catch up with him, to Germany or Switzerland. He finds it difficult to say goodbye to his grandparents and comes up with the solution to take their cow with him. She helps him as a transitional object in his new home until she is no longer needed. The boy's emotional world is at the centre; he solves his problem himself. Are children's book classics in which the word "negro" appears a problem?Classics are more likely to be read out loud than the child being left alone with them. Such frictions are wonderful occasions for conversation. It's also important to differentiate: "Jim Knopf", for example, has a basic idea that makes people understand each other, only now and then it seems clichéd how Michael Ende presents it. You can absorb that. But you can put away books with clearly outdated ideology - and reach for new ones! Benziger, I am obsessed with children's books, and have been thinking about the issue of diversity in them for years. What I suggested in the old forums is that every single person of some diversity go ahead and make tons of children's books, even people of no diversity. However, the important thing is that these interesting and new colorful, inclusive books that reflect real life---are not about race or culture. They must be about everyday issue, life, beautiful magical stories, with the hero or heroine being blank or Asian or Hispanic or anything other than the standard blond/white.
I think constantly pointing out race actually causes more harm. Morgan Freeman said do away with black history month. It should be people history month or, every day of the year. Why the segregation? Just last note. It's easy to publish now. We can overwhelm the industry.
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Post by benziger on Jun 2, 2020 13:04:32 GMT
I have compared the numbers with statistical data from Wikipedia. I converted the numbers from the graph, because animals, cars and cupcakes are not included in the population statistics.
Ethnic or language group
| Graphic | Without animals
| Wikipedia | Deviation
| Whites | 73.3%
| 83.8%
| 72.4% | 13%
| Animals, cars, cupcakes, ...
| 12.5% |
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| Afro-Amercians | 7.6% | 8.7% | 12.6% | 44%
| Asian | 3.3% | 3.8%
| 4.8% | 26%
| Latin Americans/Hispanics
| 2.4% | 2.7%
| 16.3% | 500%
| Native Americans
| 0.9% | 1.0%
| 0.9%
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| Total | 100% (87.5% without animals) | 100% (without animals)
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To make minorities visible, they also need a certain minimum quantity. This means that in the USA, Native Americans would probably have to be present in more than one in a hundred figures. Just like the Rhaetian characters in Swiss children's books. Or Sorbs in German picture books (I have never met them before in a book!).
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Jul 16, 2020 1:34:12 GMT
One would assume that it depends where in the world a story is written. Africa for example craftwhack.com/7-super-african-culture-childrens-books/I have to admit there's no one of 'colour' in my stories (unless they are ETs or whatever!) It could be because I do not personally know any, or have worked with any, or even had any live near me to notice walking the streets! So it's never really occurred to me. But in part 4, I think it was! of a series I write, that did actually occur to me, so I included a new main character with black skin, not that skin colour is mentioned much, because it's irrelevant to the story. But also a new one with almost golden coloured skin. But it is wrong, when turning stories in to film or TV, to replace a coloured person with a white one. But I think it's almost just as wrong to replace genders, for no apparent reason. Sexism?
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tasmanianartistNotLoggedIn
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Post by tasmanianartistNotLoggedIn on Jul 16, 2020 6:50:39 GMT
Having left Switzerland in 1977, I'm not au fait with the above (mix of non-Swiss to Swiss pupils in schools); however, two years before my brother died in 2012 (he lived in Switzerland, having lived in Guatemala for a couple of decades), we briefly discussed that the 'school language' used in the 'Schweizerdeutsch' Kantons (those cantons that are in the Alemannisch or 'Swiss German' language region), is now a forced 'High German'. Swiss have a 'Schriftduetsch' (a written form of 'official' German), which is different from 'High German', or the German spoken in Germany, but it enables Swiss to effectively communicate with other Germanic countries (mainly Germany, Austria), overcoming the differences of the many different dialects still spoken in those three countries. Having said that, The Swiss form of Alemannisch is Swiss German, it is a dialect integral to the tribal Alemannisch of southern Germany, western Austria, and northern Switzerland. My brother informed me that pupils are now forced, in schools, to talk to each other, in casual conversation as well as during class, in 'High German' (which is a mangled form of it in any case, and at best a form of 'Schriftduetsch') - is this the host country accommodating the new ethnic community, at the risk of loss of its own identity? Notabene: Alemannisch has never been a written language - it has always been only a spoken one, hence the need for a 'written form of German'; although, I've seen a trend among Swiss teenagers to use fb, email, etc in their own form of Schwizerduetsch, therefore it is safe to assume that the dialect(s) will survive. In answer to the conversation between my brother and me, I've written a children's book (about and with Australian native animals being the main characters, no people in it) in the Swiss German dialect that I remember having spoken before 1977, when I left that language behind, my chosen new one being English, as I emigrated to New Zealand, the notion of my own 'dialect of birth' becoming endangered by the mixing of cultures and ethnic influences was inconceiveable. (My brother lived long enough to hold a copy of it in his hands before he passed on far too soon.) It seems, writing childrens books nowadays does not only centre around how to accommodate 'colour' and ethnicity, but also whose language to use ... immigrants to Australia must learn English, and have a grasp of the country's political make up and its history - Australians do not suddenly speak a foreign language in class to accommodate another culture. (Having said that, the multiculturalism of Australia fosters a multi-lingual environment). benziger - does the forced speaking of 'Schriftduetsch/High German' in Swiss schools prevail?
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sirram
Senior Printer
No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money
Posts: 269
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Post by sirram on Jul 18, 2020 20:27:56 GMT
Whilst trying to get my head round this subject, someone above wrote, "What I suggested in the old forums is that every single person of some diversity go ahead and make tons of children's books, even people of no diversity."
I appreciate the overall point of this topic but the above is meaningless. We are all "diverse", aren't we?
If someone in a minority (in a particular country say) wants their own role models in books, then they need to start writing (and with sufficient quality that people will buy).
George Orwell covered this point in one of his essays around 1940 (I think). He was writing about British comics (particularly "Gem" and "Magnet" - both before my time (he added hastily!!)
"If one compares the Gem and Magnet with a genuinely modern paper, the thing that immediately strikes one is the absence of the leader-principle. There is no central dominating character; instead there are fifteen or twenty characters, all more or less on an equality, with whom readers of different types can identify. In the more modem papers this is not usually the case. Instead of identifying with a schoolboy of more or less his own age, the reader of the Skipper, Hotspur, etc., is led to identify with a G-man, with a Foreign Legionary, with some variant of Tarzan, with an air ace, a master spy, an explorer, a pugilist — at any rate with some single all-powerful character who dominates everyone about him and whose usual method of solving any problem is a sock on the jaw. This character is intended as a superman, and as physical strength is the form of power that boys can best understand, he is usually a sort of human gorilla; in the Tarzan type of story he is sometimes actually a giant, eight or ten feet high."
The basic message is that it is up to authors to write readable books.
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Post by benziger on Jul 18, 2020 22:23:01 GMT
This tendency already existed once in 1930, and fortunately for our Alemannic dialects (obly for them!) there was a change of power in Germany in 1933, which resulted in anti-German reflexes in Switzerland. In the stations signs with the inscription "Bahnsteig" ('platform' as in Germany) were replaced by "Perron" ('platform' inspired by a French word with a more or less close meaning), etc. Now we are at the same point again. The dialects suffer massively. First came the private radio stations in 1984. Instead of a music editor, a text editor and a presenter as in public radio, there is only one who, due to lack of time, translates live interlinearly on the basis of High German notes. The syntax is no longer always correct, nor is some vocabulary. Two examples should suffice: Stairs ('Träppe' from highgerman 'Treppe' instead of 'Stäge' - this word would also exist as 'Stiege' in highgerman, but it's only used in Austria and not in Switzerland?!) and horse ('Pfärd' from highgerman 'Pferd' instead of 'Ross' - this word would also exist in highgerman). Since private radio stations in Switzerland are an accompanying medium, many people splash about with such linguistic nonsense. Then in the last 20 years there has been an increased immigration of German professionals who thought here they speak German, so they didn't see a reason to learn the national language (Alemannic dialect). The consequence: many expressions of the Swiss standard language have been replaced by (North) German expressions. Examples: Garbage (Müll instead of Abfall or Kehrricht), buckets (Eimer instead of Kübel), boys (Jungs instead of Knaben). Yes and the school you asked about? In 1950 my mother learned to read in Alemannic. Only then was High German introduced. Thirty years later there were at least one or two reading texts per school year in Alemannic and in the lower classes a part of the poems. Since the cantonal teaching materials have been replaced by all-Swiss-German (one for 21 cantons), this has been dropped. The education politicians are sure that it has to go the way you have described. In a referendum in Zurich, High German in kindergarten was rejected. But the foreign-language children learn High German in German remedial classes "so that they then have it easier at school". You can imagine the consequences if 30% of the children only speak low level High German. In school, High German was and is the language of instruction. Only: in my times it was interpreted in such a way that the main subjects (math, german, partly science) were taught in this way and the minor subjects (music, arts, sports, crafts) in dialect. Today this is much more strictly handled. If teachers speak High German during the breaks, this is not the regulation, but it is quite common. What I accuse the school of (but the 1st point also a part of the written press) is two different things: 1. a German-German High German that excludes correct but typically Swiss-German High German expressions, or even calls them false. (If you write "Geiss" [goat], it will be an error, as it should be "Ziege" [goat]. The point is only: In the lecture book of class 5, there is a lovely story " Zlateh die Geiss" from Isaac B. Singer. Well, if a famous writer writes "Geiss", why are the children not allowed to do so?) 2. our native dialects are deliberately marginalized, while all other children are entitled to two weekly lessons of local language and culture (Albanian, South American Spanish, French, British English, Italian, Spanish Spanish, French, Hungarian, Turkish, Korean, etc.) The observation is already correct: in private life, dialects have spread massively: e-mails, SMS, etc. are often written in dialect. But how! With High German syntax and half of the High German words.
I have made introductory reference to the 1930s. Today there is a significant difference: dialect associations were founded then and debated in authoritative circles and magazines (e.g. Schweizer Spiegel). Dictionaries and grammars were published. You don't see that anywhere today. The dialect societies are outdated, dying out. The only statement one gets on the subject: dialect has no grammar and no spelling.
(3 examples from one canton, I could take others as well)
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tasmanianartistNotLoggedIn
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Post by tasmanianartistNotLoggedIn on Jul 20, 2020 6:36:38 GMT
Ouch - worse than I thought. And then the s vs sch - Stäge vs Schtäge - and the trunkated articles ... die Rose ... d'Rose ... etc. And the fb/email/SMS dialect also incorporates non-Germanic 21st century expressions imported from the English-speaking vocab. I should really not baulk at all this, cos I always prided myself in stating that 'language is a living thing'. Dead languages like 'Latin' are not capable of keeping up - having to 'invent' latin words for modern things from time to time, to be able to incorporate them in Latin texts, while 'living languages' keep evolving, changing, and mixing with the migratory trends of peoples. Imagine if Genghis Khan had reached Vienna? In 2000 already, when visiting Switzerland to show my Australian husband where I was born, I found that 'my own dialect', heard after almost 3 decades for the first time after emigrating to NZ, sounded a little 'strange', especially when sitting on a computer, discussing technical website and digital things ... egad ... I needed Langenscheidt's special digital and internet expressions dictionary. Nevertheless, with all the efforts of the 'international community' to 'help save' endangered species, and ancient/rare cultures, one forgets that within a modern society like Europe, its fabric is made up of an entire web of 'rare' cultures and languages - one template does not fit all. Rare and ancient dialects like Alemannisch do not have specific, unified grammar or spelling, but that's no reason to suppress and wipe it out - yet, it seems to be a global trend, and it continues to happen on every continent. Shakespearean English would not be easily understood by the majority of English speakers today. Karl May wrote 'perron' for 'Bahnsteig', in his 'Erzgebirgische Erzaehlungen' around 1870, it seems that during the Bismarkschen times, when the language became 'streamlined', that must have been discarded in favour for the more square sounding 'Bahnsteig'. But, what you describe also happened here in Australia - there was an entire region established by German immigrants in South Australia - with many settlements bearing German names - during the outbreak of WWII, the Australian Government decided to rename them all and give them Anglosaxon names. I wonder whom the Alemans displaced when they took over the fertile regions around the Rhine bends? PS - I used en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweizerisches_Idiotikon (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/idioticon) to get the finer points of my own dialect for my kids book ... very informative.
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tasmanianartistNotLoggedIn
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Post by tasmanianartistNotLoggedIn on Jul 20, 2020 6:54:48 GMT
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Post by benziger on Jul 20, 2020 20:36:04 GMT
The st/scht at Stäge/Schtäge is in my opinion more a question of orthography: Bernese spelling; Dieth spelling; reformed Dieth spelling; Schobinger's spelling; Noth's spelling (north of the Rhine), ...
There was a time when all the nobility spoke French. That the people imitated them - who can blame them? So did "excusez" become "exgüsi" or "quelle heure est-il?" "gellerettli". By this I mean living language that evolves. Or if (with the German standard language) the dictionary editors have included errors, which were all too often also printed, in the dictionary (Duden) after some years.
But when a few selected language popes change the language as they see fit (so-called "spelling reform"), which was then reformed seven times because of many protests - or when, as in German-speaking Switzerland, the language of a people is simply marginalized, this has little in common with a normal development of language.
Even if your dialect was not "pure" in 1977: Compared to today, it is certainly presentable. All the more so if you look up uncertainties in the Idiotikon!
I read to my son from children's books that already existed in my time: "Über di goldig Brugg" by Mrs von der Crone; stories by Mrs Sempert (you could always listen to them on the story telephone at the Cantonal Bank while the mother was standing in line).
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Post by benziger on Jul 20, 2020 20:39:38 GMT
I wonder whom the Alemans displaced when they took over the fertile regions around the Rhine bends? The population of southwestern Germany in Roman times was probably composed primarily of Romanised Celts, in the northwest also of Romanised Germanic tribes (e.g. the Neckarsueben) and immigrants from other parts of the empire. To what extent parts of this population remained in the country after the withdrawal of the Roman administration is not exactly known. However, the continuity of some river, place and field names suggests that provincial Roman population shares were also absorbed into the Alamanni. In the central Black Forest, for example, the continued existence of a Romansh-speaking island is assumed, possibly into the 9th/10th century. sources:
- Sogenannte Schwarzwaldromania: K. Kunze: Aspekte einer Sprachgeschichte des Oberrheingebietes bis zum 16. Jahrhundert. In: W. Besch (Hrsg.): Sprachgeschichte. 2. Auflage. de Gruyter, Berlin/ New York 2003, S. 2811. - Renata Windler: Besiedlung und Bevölkerung der Nordschweiz im 6. und 7. Jahrhundert. In: Karlheinz Fuchs (Hrsg.): Die Alamannen. Theiss, Stuttgart 1997, S. 261–268.
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tasmanianartistNotLoggedIn
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Post by tasmanianartistNotLoggedIn on Jul 21, 2020 6:43:21 GMT
The mind boggles trying to unravel the knot that represents the Alemannisch history, or indeed that of any given linguistic group ever in existence - I didn't know about the 'story telephone' in the banks - great idea - it must have been a thing of the past by the time I got to be part of a queue in a bank - instead I remember the X-ray machines in shoe shops where kids could look down and see the bones of their feet and how they fitted into the new shoes ... !!! Luckily, they soon disappeared from the shoe shops.
Agree: "...when...the language of a people is simply marginalized, this has little in common with a normal development of language." My husband, born Australian, now 70 years of age, gets quite upset when he hears 'new-age' English: 'We did not learn that at school!' Or similar. That's 'living language', evolving with the times.
I'm glad I wrote the kids book when I did...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 14:25:27 GMT
The mind boggles trying to unravel the knot that represents the Alemannisch history, or indeed that of any given linguistic group ever in existence - I didn't know about the 'story telephone' in the banks - great idea - it must have been a thing of the past by the time I got to be part of a queue in a bank - instead I remember the X-ray machines in shoe shops where kids could look down and see the bones of their feet and how they fitted into the new shoes ... !!! Luckily, they soon disappeared from the shoe shops. Agree: "...when...the language of a people is simply marginalized, this has little in common with a normal development of language." My husband, born Australian, now 70 years of age, gets quite upset when he hears 'new-age' English: 'We did not learn that at school!' Or similar. That's 'living language', evolving with the times. I'm glad I wrote the kids book when I did... I think one has to resist. It's getting ridiculous. "She's goals." What the heck.
Ok, so basically Nineteen Eighty Four was prophetic. Pretty soon the new generations won't be able to understand what they read. No way. Resist.
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Post by benziger on Jul 21, 2020 19:03:08 GMT
I didn't know about the 'story telephone' in the banks - great idea - it must have been a thing of the past by the time I got to be part of a queue in a bank - instead I remember the X-ray machines in shoe shops where kids could look down and see the bones of their feet Apparently it was called Märlitelifon (fairy tale phone). I found a photo: This is exactly what it looked like in the counter hall of the Cantonal Bank in 1977. I also found this series of photos: www.johannabossart.ch/arbeiten/21/marchentelefon Apparently there were listening stations like this in all kinds of other shops. The tales were short, maybe 4-5 minutes that the mother did not wait long time when she finished banking/shopping.
On the other hand, I only heard about those bone stories from the shoe shop from my mother. Apparently I'm too young.
I'm glad I wrote the kids book when I did... Can you share a link with this book? Alemannic children's books are not a mass market, but good books are rare and who knows who reads along?
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