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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 18:28:59 GMT
Future generations will want to study the riots and other events to come. They will want to read up on all sides of the equation and thought processes. If you make all negative books disappear there will be no evidence of what people actually think, and how we arrived at where we are.
It is important to allow all books to be published. They are evidence and a window into the minds of the people. They provide knowledge, and through this knowledge thoughts can be addressed. Otherwise, everything is hidden and nothing can be solved, changed, influenced, repaired or acknowledged.
Imagine all thoughts of slaves had been erased because the people in power did not approve. Maybe the few literate slaves were writing hateful things about their owners?
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Post by ronmiller on Jun 9, 2020 19:26:36 GMT
Fortunately, ex-slaves did write books...and they made a difference. These range from "The Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave," which was published as early as 1845, to "12 Years a Slave" from 1853. But some narratives written by slaves or ex-slaves go back to the 18th century while others were published as late as the middle of the 20th century. I think you are absolutely right...but with some hesitation. While no book should be suppressed there should also be some way for a reader to be able to evaluate what they are reading. To take an example that I have been quoting often lately, someone reading "The Negro a Beast" would come away with the idea that blacks are literally animals and not human at all...and that there is science to support that. The book is certainly a window into the author's mind...but what actual knowledge does it convey? Zero. Likewise, "The Protocols of Zion" convinced tens of thousands of readers that there was a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world. The Nazis were immensely influenced by this book...and it continues to sell and fuel conspiracies to this day. Should it be banned? No. But it certainly wouldn't hurt to include some context so that a reader can not only develop an opinion but an informed one. It is akin to pseudoscience. What harm can something like astrology be? one might ask. Massimo Pigliucci provides a pretty compelling answer. To take another example, early anti-vaccination books such as "A Shot in the Dark" were largely based on speculation and bad science and ultimately cost thousands of lives. Again, should it have been repressed? No...but how would a reader be able to know whether what they just read was knowledge or fantasy? No book should be repressed...but by the same token should a publisher assume some responsibility if they publish a book that through the author's ignorance and anti-science agenda potentially endangers lives? Or, as with "The Turner Diaries," encourages racial hatreds and even racial genocide? It is morally wrong to suppress, censor and destroy books...but one has to also ask how many tens or even hundreds of thousands of human beings would be alive today had the Protocols never seen print? I have an elderly friend who is not in the best of health. Some years ago he decided to forego his prescribed medications...which had been doing him a lot of good...and instead follow the "treatments" advocated by the late Lynn Taggart (whose books were largely behind the American anti-vaccination movement). I asked him why he thought that anything she said had any value. "It was in a book," he replied, "and she has written lots of them." Indeed she did. But Taggart was a journalist with zero scientific or medical background. Pretty much everything she wrote was utterly worthless. But it was there, in print, between covers, and my friend believed it, along with hundreds of thousands of Taggart's other readers. Should her books have been suppressed? No, because that's a slippery slope to get started on. But...did her publisher have some responsibility to make sure that what they were publishing was correct and, even more importantly, at least harmless? Absolutely. Every single YA science book I have ever done has been fact-checked by an independent expert...and anything they find mistaken I am obligated to correct. Taggart's publisher had the same responsibility to its readers to have her book vetted by medical experts. But Taggart's books came out untouched...and today thousands of unvaccinated children are suffering and dying. And my friend is sicker than ever as he takes his colloidal silver and essential oils every day. All too often---far, far too often---the lure of a potentially lucrative best-seller supersedes any moral responsibilities a publisher may have to its customers. One might say, well, the readers of these books can make their own decisions. They can read different accounts and make up their own minds. Alas, if only things worked that way. The problem with Taggart's books---and the many, many like hers---is that they are all written with an air of authority and expertise. They will even contain footnotes, references and bibliographies. There is no apparent reason for a layperson to question them. And even if they did, they don't necessarily have the background knowledge to judge which might be correct and which nonsense. So what to do? Well, a good example of what not to do is the story of the publication of Immanuel Velikovsky's pseudoscientific and utterly worthless masterpiece, Worlds in Collision back in the 50s. When astronomers and scientists discovered that it was about to be published, they threatened to pull all of their own books from the publisher if it continued with its plans to publish Worlds in Collision. The publisher gave in and the book eventually came out from a different press. This was a real black mark for science...an event it has been trying to live down for more than three-quarters of a century. It was a perfect example of not only what not to do but how to guarantee making the book you were trying to suppress become a best-seller...which it did.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 21:57:54 GMT
Fortunately, ex-slaves did write books...and they made a difference. These range from "The Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave," which was published as early as 1845, to "12 Years a Slave" from 1853. But some narratives written by slaves or ex-slaves go back to the 18th century while others were published as late as the middle of the 20th century. I think you are absolutely right...but with some hesitation. While no book should be suppressed there should also be some way for a reader to be able to evaluate what they are reading. To take an example that I have been quoting often lately, someone reading "The Negro a Beast" would come away with the idea that blacks are literally animals and not human at all...and that there is science to support that. The book is certainly a window into the author's mind...but what actual knowledge does it convey? Zero. Likewise, "The Protocols of Zion" convinced tens of thousands of readers that there was a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world. The Nazis were immensely influenced by this book...and it continues to sell and fuel conspiracies to this day. Should it be banned? No. But it certainly wouldn't hurt to include some context so that a reader can not only develop an opinion but an informed one. It is akin to pseudoscience. What harm can something like astrology be? one might ask. Massimo Pigliucci provides a pretty compelling answer. To take another example, early anti-vaccination books such as "A Shot in the Dark" were largely based on speculation and bad science and ultimately cost thousands of lives. Again, should it have been repressed? No...but how would a reader be able to know whether what they just read was knowledge or fantasy? No book should be repressed...but by the same token should a publisher assume some responsibility if they publish a book that through the author's ignorance and anti-science agenda potentially endangers lives? Or, as with "The Turner Diaries," encourages racial hatreds and even racial genocide? It is morally wrong to suppress, censor and destroy books...but one has to also ask how many tens or even hundreds of thousands of human beings would be alive today had the Protocols never seen print? I have an elderly friend who is not in the best of health. Some years ago he decided to forego his prescribed medications...which had been doing him a lot of good...and instead follow the "treatments" advocated by the late Lynn Taggart (whose books were largely behind the American anti-vaccination movement). I asked him why he thought that anything she said had any value. "It was in a book," he replied, "and she has written lots of them." Indeed she did. But Taggart was a journalist with zero scientific or medical background. Pretty much everything she wrote was utterly worthless. But it was there, in print, between covers, and my friend believed it, along with hundreds of thousands of Taggart's other readers. Should her books have been suppressed? No, because that's a slippery slope to get started on. But...did her publisher have some responsibility to make sure that what they were publishing was correct and, even more importantly, at least harmless? Absolutely. Every single YA science book I have ever done has been fact-checked by an independent expert...and anything they find mistaken I am obligated to correct. Taggart's publisher had the same responsibility to its readers to have her book vetted by medical experts. But Taggart's books came out untouched...and today thousands of unvaccinated children are suffering and dying. And my friend is sicker than ever as he takes his colloidal silver and essential oils every day. All too often---far, far too often---the lure of a potentially lucrative best-seller supersedes any moral responsibilities a publisher may have to its customers. One might say, well, the readers of these books can make their own decisions. They can read different accounts and make up their own minds. Alas, if only things worked that way. The problem with Taggart's books---and the many, many like hers---is that they are all written with an air of authority and expertise. They will even contain footnotes, references and bibliographies. There is no apparent reason for a layperson to question them. And even if they did, they don't necessarily have the background knowledge to judge which might be correct and which nonsense. So what to do? Well, a good example of what not to do is the story of the publication of Immanuel Velikovsky's pseudoscientific and utterly worthless masterpiece, Worlds in Collision back in the 50s. When astronomers and scientists discovered that it was about to be published, they threatened to pull all of their own books from the publisher if it continued with its plans to publish Worlds in Collision. The publisher gave in and the book eventually came out from a different press. This was a real black mark for science...an event it has been trying to live down for more than three-quarters of a century. It was a perfect example of not only what not to do but how to guarantee making the book you were trying to suppress become a best-seller...which it did. I am aware that ex-slaves wrote books. I have published a few of them. And I still disagree with you wholeheartedly. I want all the material out there, no matter what. Free people must have access to all information. We must assume that we are intelligent. You can write twenty pages in response, and I will still believe that censorship is a terrible thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 7:20:22 GMT
"It is morally wrong to suppress, censor and destroy books...but one has to also ask how many tens or even hundreds of thousands of human beings would be alive today had the Protocols never seen print?" (Ron Miller) If people just go to Auswitz/Birkenau and see for themseives how certain publications can cause the death of millions of innocent people, then maybe they will realise books like the Protocols are utterly worthless. Unfortunately people like the Nazis believed the book and the Protocols served to rationalize anti-Semitism and genocide in Hitler’s Germany. Once in power Hitler invoked the Protocols to justify anti-Semitic legislation and suppression of all opposition to the Third Reich. Certain publications which are not based on evidence and facts, such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and other malicious and inciteful falsehood publications, often written anonomously, do untold damage and are the responsibility of the publishers "to make sure that what they were publishing was correct and, even more importantly, at least harmless?"I went to Auschwitz/Birkenau a few years ago and was utterly appalled at the atrocities and the lying literature published about people considered "untermensch", a Nazi term for non-Aryan "inferior people" often referred to as "the masses from the East", that is Jews, Roma, and Slavs – mainly Poles, Serbs, etc. If anyone would like a free copy of my book about my visit, here is the link---
www.lulu.com/en/gb/shop/elizabeth-keimach/my-visit-to-auschwits-and-birkenau/ebook/product-1rvq59vw.html
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 11:05:00 GMT
"It is morally wrong to suppress, censor and destroy books...but one has to also ask how many tens or even hundreds of thousands of human beings would be alive today had the Protocols never seen print?" (Ron Miller) If people just go to Auswitz/Birkenau and see for themseives how certain publications can cause the death of millions of innocent people, then maybe they will realise books like the Protocols are utterly worthless. Unfortunately people like the Nazis believed the book and the Protocols served to rationalize anti-Semitism and genocide in Hitler’s Germany. Once in power Hitler invoked the Protocols to justify anti-Semitic legislation and suppression of all opposition to the Third Reich. Certain publications which are not based on evidence and facts, such as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and other malicious and inciteful falsehood publications, often written anonomously, do untold damage and are the responsibility of the publishers "to make sure that what they were publishing was correct and, even more importantly, at least harmless?"I went to Auschwitz/Birkenau a few years ago and was utterly appalled at the atrocities and the lying literature published about people considered "untermensch", a Nazi term for non-Aryan "inferior people" often referred to as "the masses from the East", that is Jews, Roma, and Slavs – mainly Poles, Serbs, etc. If anyone would like a free copy of my book about my visit, here is the link---
www.lulu.com/en/gb/shop/elizabeth-keimach/my-visit-to-auschwits-and-birkenau/ebook/product-1rvq59vw.html Evil people cause genocides. The list throughout history is long and horrific.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 11:18:03 GMT
We can learn from the words left behind and always be cautious and alert when we hear anything resonating of them. If there were no printed record we would think any new person's fascist rhetoric is fresh and new. We are now educated and know better.
The Jews value education. They have always valued it. And that is why they were ambushed. They were scholars and taught their children the letters as opposed to fighting.
Now, the Greeks (some were/are Jewish), they value letters but due to their history of war they were more prepared mentally and physically. They fought like the Dickens in World War II. They were finally overtaken when the Germans came in with tanks, but they delayed them immensely.
I'm only halfway through Captain Corelli's Mandolin but that is what I've read so far, besides all the colourful stories growing up--which I looked up as soon as the Internet entered my household.
I am sure glad there is a printed record of everything. Best to know what happened so it never happens again.
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Post by BlueAndGold on Jun 10, 2020 12:19:11 GMT
Books don't kill people. People kill people. Print the books.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 14:44:41 GMT
Books don't kill people. People kill people. Print the books.
True but books influence people and publishers must be responsible.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2020 15:10:31 GMT
Books don't kill people.People kill people.Print the books.True but books influence people and publishers must be responsible. People influence people. With or without books. Are we going to ban people, and talking, are we going to control people's thoughts? Sanitize everyone?
People must survive. Books must survive.
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Post by BlueAndGold on Jun 10, 2020 23:44:29 GMT
To extend your logic, Larika: If someone gets behind the wheel of an automobile and decides to run someone over with it, then the automobile manufacturer should be held accountable for the squished person's death?
Sorry. Not happening.
Print the books. Build the automobiles. Hold evildoers accountable for their OWN actions, not the population at large.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jun 11, 2020 0:00:53 GMT
To extend your logic, Larika: If someone gets behind the wheel of an automobile and decides to run someone over with it, then the automobile manufacturer should be held accountable for the squished person's death? Sorry. Not happening. Print the books. Build the automobiles. Hold evildoers accountable for their OWN actions, not the population at large. Those who would perform evil acts upon their fellows may often choose to avoid blame and therefore shirk both culpability and accountability via "I was just following orders" or "I was reading about..." or "If that person hadn't sold me..." but it's all excuses.
You could take every last normal instrument of mayhem from every last house and those who wish to commit mayhem would still be able to do so, unless you placed each individual into a separate compartment with no sharp corners and nothing loose. The reason is because humans are apex predators that when willing can devise creative ways to commit heinous deeds, and it requires no great ability to adapt the mundane to murderous purposes.
People need to accept that they are accountable for their actions, whether it's dropping canisters of Zyklon B into a shower or feeding someone pork chops and mushrooms on a bed of oleander.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 3:55:17 GMT
To extend your logic, Larika: If someone gets behind the wheel of an automobile and decides to run someone over with it, then the automobile manufacturer should be held accountable for the squished person's death?Print the books. Build the automobiles. Hold evildoers accountable for their OWN actions, not the population at large.
We are talking about books that are UNTRUE. If the automobile was defective and caused the death of a pedestrian, I would certainly say that the manufacturer was irresponsible to produce it, however if the car was fine and the driver recklessly kills someone then it is the driver's fault. In the same way if the books are true go ahead and publish but when they are patently untrue then the publisher has a responsibility to the public to feed them the truth.
I am simply agreeing with Ron that a publisher has some responsibility to make sure that what they are publishing is correct and, even more importantly, harmless. I am not saying supress the books once they are published, or burn them as Hitler did. However a publisher who publishes a harmful and incorrect book is being irresponsible. Ron told us about the following books--- A Shot in the Dark" were largely based on speculation and bad science and ultimately cost thousands of lives. Again, should it have been repressed? No...but how would a reader be able to know whether what they just read was knowledge or fantasy? No book should be repressed...but by the same token should a publisher assume some responsibility if they publish a book that through the author's ignorance and anti-science agenda potentially endangers lives? Or, as with "The Turner Diaries," encourages racial hatreds and even racial genocide
So no supression once published, but certainly there should be a sense of responsibility on the part of the publisher before publication. Should the publisher have published the above untrue books, or the untrue Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I think the publishers were irresponsible, Do you agree?
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Post by BlueAndGold on Jun 11, 2020 12:25:16 GMT
No, I do not agree. Print the books. What is "truth"? Who will be the arbiter? A government? Governments killed 250,000,000 people in the 20th century alone. We certainly can't trust them. If we haphazardly ban books then I guess we should ban newspapers also, since they spread more dangerous lies and propaganda than any other medium, perhaps, than television. Let's let the INDIVIDUAL decide the truth. That's why we have brains. That's why we read multiple sources, and to read them we must print them. Just print the books. Keep it simple.
EDIT: Larika, I DO agree, of course, that it is a publisher's right and prerogative to choose what they may publish or not. Most sensible persons will, of course do so. And that is good. But it is the publisher's choice - not anyone else's.
In Lulu's case, they are simply a service which connects publishers with printers and performs other services for a fee. It is NOT in their best interests to muddle in the affairs of the publishers. That is not their charter. Unless something has changed.
Just print the books!
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Post by BlueAndGold on Jun 11, 2020 13:09:06 GMT
By the way, perhaps something has changed!
I recently read some fine print on Lulu's site stating that if you accept one of their free ISBN's, then you accept that Lulu is the publisher of record of that work. I never saw that before the site downgrade.
I just looked for it again and couldn't find it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 13:46:33 GMT
EDIT: Larika, I DO agree, of course, that it is a publisher's right and prerogative to choose what they may publish or not. Most sensible persons will, of course do so. And that is good. But it is the publisher's choice - not anyone else's.
If we haphazardly ban books then I guess we should ban newspapers also, since they spread more dangerous lies and propaganda than any other medium, perhaps, than television.
Never Have I said that once the book is published it should be banned. Always I said it was up to the publisher. In some instances the books they published were PROVEN to be lies and in that case the publisher was being irresponsible in allowing the book to be published. So I can presume you think it was right for the books Ron mentioned, that did untold damage, should have seen the light of day? Please go to google and you will see the evidence to prove these books were absolute LIES. But according to you they should still "print the books."
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