|
Post by And Kevin 2024 on Aug 23, 2020 0:20:00 GMT
The rules of punctuation can be pernickety and actually contradictory, and some people can be pedantic about it. Going back to speech, here's one example. Fred says. "Hello." Capital after full stop, right? But why when that bit of speaking is a continuation. It should be, Fred says, "hello." a comma. You don't use a capital after a comma. Perhaps even the comma need not be there considering what a comma is supposed to be for. And I have seen both methods used quite a lot, and in the same book.
|
|
|
Post by ronmiller on Aug 23, 2020 11:47:16 GMT
The rules of punctuation can be pernickety and actually contradictory, and some people can be pedantic about it. Going back to speech, here's one example. Fred says. "Hello." Capital after full stop, right? But why when that bit of speaking is a continuation. It should be, Fred says, "hello." a comma. You don't use a capital after a comma. Perhaps even the comma need not be there considering what a comma is supposed to be for. And I have seen both methods used quite a lot, and in the same book. Where in the world did you ever see anything like Henry says. "Hello."? At least in a professionally published book? In any case, whether or not to capitalize the first word in a quote is something that might well vary between publishers. The general rule that a capital shouldn't follow a comma is considered a different case when talking about quotes, in which case the first word of a complete sentence should be capitalized, regardless of its placement within the main sentence. That is, if what a character is saying is a complete sentence in itself, the first word is capitalized. For instance: Fred said, "My neighbor has an annoying dog." Here is Oxford University Press' stance on the matter It is the style you will find that is followed most often by traditional publishers. But whatever style is used in a book, it should be used consistently. If you've seen both used in the same book it's really evidence of poor copy editing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2020 12:59:12 GMT
The general rule that a capital shouldn't follow a comma is considered a different case when talking about quotes, in which case the first word of a complete sentence should be capitalized, regardless of its placement within the main sentence. That is, if what a character is saying is a complete sentence in itself, the first word is capitalized. For instance: Fred said, "My neighbor has an annoying dog."(Ron)
I was taught always to capitalize after a comma if the comment is a complete sentence. Elizabeth said, "The general rule is what I follow."
|
|
|
Post by And on Aug 23, 2020 13:39:22 GMT
And: "The general rule," said Elizabeth, "is what I follow."
|
|
|
Post by potet on Aug 23, 2020 16:08:48 GMT
Aren't you interested in David LODGE's style? I advise you to buy his book and read it.
|
|
|
Post by ronmiller on Aug 23, 2020 18:53:38 GMT
The general rule that a capital shouldn't follow a comma is considered a different case when talking about quotes, in which case the first word of a complete sentence should be capitalized, regardless of its placement within the main sentence. That is, if what a character is saying is a complete sentence in itself, the first word is capitalized. For instance: Fred said, "My neighbor has an annoying dog."(Ron)I was taught always to capitalize after a comma if the comment is a complete sentence. "Elizabeth said, "The general rule is what I follow." And this is not only correct but, I think, also looks and reads best.
|
|
|
Post by ronmiller on Aug 23, 2020 18:55:06 GMT
Aren't you interested in David LODGE's style? I advise you to buy his book and read it. It is interesting, as is Cormac McCarthy's...but these are highly individualized and I wouldn't recommend them for common usage.
|
|
|
Post by And Kevin 2024 on Aug 23, 2020 22:51:25 GMT
The rules of punctuation can be pernickety and actually contradictory, and some people can be pedantic about it. Going back to speech, here's one example. Fred says. "Hello." Capital after full stop, right? But why when that bit of speaking is a continuation. It should be, Fred says, "hello." a comma. You don't use a capital after a comma. Perhaps even the comma need not be there considering what a comma is supposed to be for. And I have seen both methods used quite a lot, and in the same book. Where in the world did you ever see anything like Henry says. "Hello."? At least in a professionally published book? Er, in many books of fiction, and professionally published ones. What's wrong with that? But I do recall a long time ago you saying that there's no reason at all to say who is saying what, even though it's very common.In any case, whether or not to capitalize the first word in a quote is something that might well vary between publishers. Indeed it does. The general rule that a capital shouldn't follow a comma is considered a different case when talking about quotes, in which case the first word of a complete sentence should be capitalized, regardless of its placement within the main sentence. Indeed. Of a complete sentence. Which normally follows a full stop, or period as some call it. That is, if what a character is saying is a complete sentence in itself, the first word is capitalized. For instance: Fred said, "My neighbor has an annoying dog." Why? Fred is the start of that sentence, that's how people talk, they don't have a strange period after said. A pause maybe, but not a full stop. As in, stop.Here is Oxford University Press' stance on the matter It is the style you will find that is followed most often by traditional publishers. Strangely, that link does not work. But it does evolve. Do you still use a . after Mrs and Mr for example? It used to be common practice to do so. But, some massive company who employed 1,000s of typists decided that many hours a week were being wasted typing those full stops, so they stopped, and the habit seemed to have spread. It's a bit like acronyms. At one time each letter had a . after it. Not any longer.But whatever style is used in a book, it should be used consistently. If you've seen both used in the same book it's really evidence of poor copy editing. It's depends entirely on the context of what is being said, and how, so yes I see both methods in use in many fiction books from famous writers and well-known publishing houses. But what I wonder is if most readers actually notice the punctuation. They just read the words.
|
|
|
Post by And Kevin 2024 on Aug 23, 2020 22:54:35 GMT
The general rule that a capital shouldn't follow a comma is considered a different case when talking about quotes, in which case the first word of a complete sentence should be capitalized, regardless of its placement within the main sentence. That is, if what a character is saying is a complete sentence in itself, the first word is capitalized. For instance: Fred said, "My neighbor has an annoying dog."(Ron)I was taught always to capitalize after a comma if the comment is a complete sentence. "Elizabeth said, "The general rule is what I follow." I am glad you can recall that far back, I know I can't!
|
|
|
Post by And Kevin 2024 on Aug 23, 2020 23:11:51 GMT
Aren't you interested in David LODGE's style? I advise you to buy his book and read it. It is interesting, as is Cormac McCarthy's...but these are highly individualized and I wouldn't recommend them for common usage. I have just had a look at a Preview of one of D. Lodge's books, and the style does not look too uncommon to me and I read a lot. You have to recall we are writing fiction and trying to put across how people actually speak. People do not speak the way punctuation is supposed to be. But the interesting thing is, is there a time scale for a full stop? .30sec? A week? What? Same for a comma. That's just a very short pause, just the way people speak, before they continue. Now, could I have literally said, "just the way people think" (full stop) Then wandered off for a few hours, then returned and said, "before they continue". It would seem odd, and very rude.
Some may have said that Impressionism in painting was highly individualised by Claude Monet and not for common usage.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2020 4:24:53 GMT
I am glad you can recall that far back, I know I can't! (Kevin)It was a long, long, long time ago Kevin. But isn't it strange how you can remember the uncomfortable episodes from the past, but the happier times are often forgotten. We had a dragon of an English teacher in my Grammar School! Oh that horrible red correction pen!
|
|
|
Post by And Kevin 2024 on Aug 25, 2020 1:01:09 GMT
I am glad you can recall that far back, I know I can't! (Kevin)It was a long, long, long time ago Kevin. But isn't it strange how you can remember the uncomfortable episodes from the past, but the happier times are often forgotten. We had a dragon of an English teacher in my Grammar School! Oh that horrible red correction pen! Very much so. I actually recall one of my first days at school. For some reason they insisted on the use of pen and ink. I asked why we could not use a biro. I was brought out to the front and told, "because they are not proper!" pushed back to my desk so hard I fell on my face. Some of those 'old school' teachers were pretty evil. If a teacher did that nowadays … And from both primary and secondary school I recall sweating outside a headmaster's door many times, and at the former they were still allowed to use the cane.
|
|
|
Post by potet on Aug 25, 2020 12:08:15 GMT
Well, to me, and many have said it before, David LODGE is a master of the English language, and his style is so clear that this author is considered a modern classic. Perhaps you misunderstood what I said. LODGE does use quotation marks for his dialogues in direct speech. His resorting to the run-on dialogue in some passages is a stylistic effect that recalls the stream of consciousness technique to a certain extent. I was just mentioning this because obviously you had never heard of such a possibility. Also I am surprised some of you do not know how to use quotation marks and the punctuation that goes with them. Just open any well-written novel, and you'll find in it all the answers.
|
|
|
Post by potet on Aug 25, 2020 12:21:20 GMT
I have just had a look at a Preview of one of D. Lodge's books, and the style does not look too uncommon to me and I read a lot. You have to recall we are writing fiction and trying to put across how people actually speak. People do not speak the way punctuation is supposed to be. But the interesting thing is, is there a time scale for a full stop? .30sec? A week? What? Same for a comma. That's just a very short pause, just the way people speak, before they continue. Now, could I have literally said, "just the way people think" (full stop) Then wandered off for a few hours, then returned and said, "before they continue". It would seem odd, and very rude.
Some may have said that Impressionism in painting was highly individualised by Claude Monet and not for common usage. First time I read of a time scale for punctuation. Very interesting. Thanks. "You have to recall we are writing fiction and trying to put across how people actually speak." I suppose every novelist does, and according to the character speaking. David LODGE's characters speak today's standard English, mainly colloquial. Whatever .. have a nice day.
|
|
|
Post by BlueAndGold on Aug 25, 2020 12:47:30 GMT
Good point about the time scale. I had never thought about it consciously or dissected it, but I know that I do use such a thing when I write. I hear the conversation in my head and use commas, semicolons, colons, periods, and dashes to indicate the lengths of pauses - subconsciously, I suppose. It works for me when I read it. I hope it works for others too. It's the way I was taught and have emulated my whole life.
|
|