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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 1:59:23 GMT
Larika, though I really like my love novel, I used a male pen name for it, and I really like being an anonymous writer. So, though I am tempted because I badly need reviews, I have to keep it private among people I know and hope and pray it finds its audience. When I get the funds I may submit it to Kirkus Reviews.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 3:30:23 GMT
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jan 31, 2020 12:58:09 GMT
One reason many people go into Self-Publishing is the odds of getting Traditionally Published. An article written in 2016 pegged the approximate number of new Traditionally Published titles in the titles in the US at 300,000, which if you were doing the lottery at those odds it wouldn't be so bad. The thing to consider is what goes into that 300,000 titles that get picked. First, consider the ginormous mass of submissions Traditional Publishers in the US [as a group] receive every year. The query letter that goes with the submission [how you plan to help sell the book, a good barebones summary that has enough 'Wow-factor' to warrant a second look, as well as how well the letter is or is not structured] winnows out 90% of submissions. Remember, this is Trad Publishers as a whole, receiving roughly 15,000,000 submissions. Losing 90% leaves 1,500,000 potential candidates for acceptance, and they will judge the quality of the submission solely on that query letter. [Since I'm not the best at writing a query letter of that sort, it would appear I have absolutely no talent at crafting a good story per the Traditional Publishing logic used to weed out the schlock. This means either the logic used to weed out execrable writing is flawed enough to also weed out a lot of writers who can craft memorable stories who just don't pitch as in sell them well or my novels are best used as toilet paper.] Second, the submissions that make it through the first cut get read, which winnows out 80% as subpar [as in not as good as the query letter made them sound]. This leaves that 300,000 number, which is 2% of the original 15,000,000. The thing to remember is any one publisher won't have that huge number of total submissions so the competition to get accepted varies by publisher and genre, but the odds of any one new unknown writer having a submission accepted still isn't great. The chances of getting published traditionally probably aren't great...but by the same token, not every single book that gets written deserves to be published...in any form. By the same token, I am not so sure that your description of the weeding out process is entirely accurate since it can be very different from publisher to publisher. To take just one example, some major publishers have no problem with unsolicited, i.e. unagented, submissions while other major publishers insist upon them; on the other hand, many small publishers will consider nothing but agented submissions. That alone can make a huge difference in how a book is considered. Sure, publishers by necessity have to pass on a lot of worthy books, no question about that. The thing is that a potential reader knows that a book from a traditional publisher has run a gauntlet, that it has to have gone through a long, arduous vetting process, that is some assurance of quality. There is absolutely no expectation of that with a self-published book. Actually my description is a summary of someone else's much longer general description, though as I may have mentioned I suck at writing summary / query letters. The last course I kind of sort of took on English was during my last year of High School, and I essentially slept with eyes-open through most of that. I tested out for credit on English years later in college, though on the English portion of the SAT I did well enough to be offered a presidential scholarship I couldn't accept; being caregiver for a dying parent tends to close some doors on personal aspiration.
On self-published work, while there is no formal vetting process for quality the discerning reader can generally tell a lot by the sample offered, if the writing quality of the sample ranges from poor to horrible it's pretty obvious the book is a waste of time, money, and the oxygen needed for the reader to maybe get through it.
Yet that vetting process for Trad Publishing isn't always a guarantee a book is particularly good in the reader's eyes. Years ago while I was out at old Ft Ord near Presidio of Monterey I was at the PX where I bought a book by a well-known author you've done at least one cover for. The blurb on the back as well as the interior of the cover indicated it held a lot of the author's previously unpublished short stories for a series I liked. What I discovered on reading the work was a few short stories [new to me], several older shorts [I'd already read], and a lot of personal anecdotal stories . I've picked up other books that left me feeling like I'd wasted my money, pero es la vida, el comprador tenga cuidado.
The bottom line in publishing is it's difficult to get an audience whichever route is chosen. True, persistence and patience help, as does a good dollop of luck to have the right book at the right time, combined with good writing. Persistence and patience alone aren't enough. Time for me to suck down some more chicoree kaffee so I can get outside after sunrise in order to get some work done that I'm actually good at.
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Post by ronmiller on Jan 31, 2020 13:41:06 GMT
Over the years I've had a lot of traditionally published authors taking their book, after their contract has expired, and republishing it themselves. Some of these authors are bestselling and already have a readership. Others only slightly. Also, I've heard that an author sells maximum 5000 copies of a book, at 5 to 8 percent royalty, they make about the same as a self-published author who can make a 20% royalty. This is based on research from 16 years ago. Traditionally published author royalties might have increased since then. Indeed. I know of a number of authors (myself included!) who have self-published previously-published books once the rights have reverted back. My friend Lois works in the opposite way. Many of her books come out in ebook form, from her agent, before they appear between covers from her traditional publisher. The original source for that "5 to 8 percent royalty" may have been talking about paperbacks, since the royalty structure is a little different between softcover and hardcover books...and especially mass-market paperbacks vs trade paperbacks and hardcover books. The royalties for books---both hardcover and softcover---are usually on a scale. For instance, the royalty for a mass market paperback book might be 8% for the first X thousand and then 10% for anything over that. For a hardcover book royalties typically start at 10 percent for the first 5000, 12.5% for the next 5000 and 15% for anything over that. (There will usually be a separate royalty structure for foreign sales, book club sales, etc.) These numbers are all potentially a little different for different publishers and different circumstances. For instance, a small publishing company may offer a much smaller royalty and perhaps a royalty in lieu of an advance, and academic publishers will usually have extremely small royalty rates...and sometimes none at all, with the author working for a flat fee. Royalties are also based on the cover price of a book, which should be taken into consideration. Five thousand copies of a trade paperback novel may cost only about a dollar each or even less to produce via traditional printing but have a cover price of perhaps ten dollars. That's a one dollar royalty to the author with the balance going to the publisher. And remember that the self-published author is also responsible for costs such as editing, copy-editing, design and art as well as any advertising or marketing costs, including providing things like review copies and even travel expenses if they want to do out-of-town signings or appearances. All of this has to come out of pocket. On the other hand, the traditional publisher absorbs all of these expenses in addition to providing the author with an up-front, non-returnable advance. By the same token, if the book just sits there and doesn't sell a single copy, the publisher absorbs that loss. These things need to be taken into account when comparing the two.
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Post by ronmiller on Jan 31, 2020 13:42:06 GMT
Larika, though I really like my love novel, I used a male pen name for it, and I really like being an anonymous writer. So, though I am tempted because I badly need reviews, I have to keep it private among people I know and hope and pray it finds its audience. When I get the funds I may submit it to Kirkus Reviews. I wish you the best of success with your novel!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 18:46:08 GMT
Thank you very much, Ron and Larika. I appreciate it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 19:00:16 GMT
That's actually really useful information, Ron, from an insider. That can't be replaced with a book.
The book I had read was Writer's Market, I believe. The publishing world has changed considerably since then. It was around 2014. I read the book, followed all the rules, sent out queries and manuscripts. I even approached Author's something or other--it was a vanity press. It was uncomfortable thinking I would pay to have my book published, almost as if it doesn't count.
I don't consider what I do "paying" to have my book published, because if you take your time, and learn all the skills, it's possible to not pay. In fact, I have paid only a couple of times to upload to IS, and I paid Mel for children's illustrations last year. That's it. But you only pay once, then you own all the rights, forever.
I can see an up side to traditional publishing, but I wouldn't have learned all these skills, met all these people, acquired a new job, tried to better myself in so many ways if I had had one of my children's book manuscripts accepted. I would have just said, ok, that's checked off the bucket list.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2020 19:05:19 GMT
Cameron, my instinct tells me you just need one Kirkus review. If they love the book they send it to movie and tv series producers. That happened to a local author, in a similar genre as your own.
Huge huge demand. They're running out of ideas. They need you more than you need them.
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Post by ronmiller on Jan 31, 2020 19:50:01 GMT
That's actually really useful information, Ron, from an insider. That can't be replaced with a book. The book I had read was Writer's Market, I believe. The publishing world has changed considerably since then. It was around 2014. I read the book, followed all the rules, sent out queries and manuscripts. I even approached Author's something or other--it was a vanity press. It was uncomfortable thinking I would pay to have my book published, almost as if it doesn't count. I don't consider what I do "paying" to have my book published, because if you take your time, and learn all the skills, it's possible to not pay. In fact, I have paid only a couple of times to upload to IS, and I paid Mel for children's illustrations last year. That's it. But you only pay once, then you own all the rights, forever. I can see an up side to traditional publishing, but I wouldn't have learned all these skills, met all these people, acquired a new job, tried to better myself in so many ways if I had had one of my children's book manuscripts accepted. I would have just said, ok, that's checked off the bucket list. Well, you own all the rights to your book forever even if you publish traditionally. (Oh...I think you meant paying for the art you used. I misread what you meant. When you do that, make sure it is part of your contract with the artist that you own all rights! It's worth pointing this out for anyone else reading this since a lot of authors have gotten into trouble by assuming that just because they have commissioned, say, a cover painting that they own the rights to it.) And I think you may be an exception when it comes to skills! That being said, think of the time it takes to learn to be an effective editor, book designer, cover artist, marketer and advertiser---and some of those things require as much latent talent as they do following directions. That time is worth something...if nothing else, it is time that could be spent writing or even spent on a paying job. I can understand what you mean about the satisfaction of not only having cleared all of the hurdles of completing and publishing a book and checking it off your bucket list...even typing "The End" to a story is a great feeling!...and there is also a lot to be said for having learned the skills you did and in meeting all of your new colleagues and friends...but if the goal is continue to write books than the time is probably better spent writing than learning all of the fundamentals of publishing, or jumping through all of the hoops required in getting a book into print and sold. Then, too, when it comes to satisfaction, I think there is a lot attached to the fact that someone else thinks enough of your work to invest a considerable amount of time, effort and money into publishing your book. There's much to be said for that kind of validation. So, I guess, at bottom it really all depends on one's individual expectations and goals. There is probably no right or wrong way that applies universally.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jan 31, 2020 21:52:37 GMT
Cameron, my instinct tells me you just need one Kirkus review. If they love the book they send it to movie and tv series producers. That happened to a local author, in a similar genre as your own. Huge huge demand. They're running out of ideas. They need you more than you need them. I had considered a Kirkus review, but on a near poverty-line budget for another year, it will have to wait. "Mono-Earth: The War of the Egg" would easily translate into three movies, I just have two concerns.
First, Hollywood often does a poor job of adapting novels to movies. Andre Norton's "The Beastmaster" [Harcourt, 1959] comes to mind. "The Beastmaster" adaptation [1982, starring Marc Singer] in the end credits mentions the movie being based on a novel by Andre Norton. The end credits should have stated: 'Based so flipping loosely on a novel by Andre Norton if you read the book you won't recognize this movie and vice versa'.
Second, while I'd like to see my oldest brother and his family, I have some relatives where it hasn't been nearly long enough since I last saw them, for two of them in particular twenty years is way too short a time. If a movie were made from my work I have little doubt the very people who repeatedly extended their metaphorical middle fingers toward me for decades would show up all smiles. I'd really hate to have to smite one of them as they're really full of it and I have no desire to clean up their messes after them; done enough of that already.
Back to work on an access lane tomorrow, that is something i can do with what I have as long as the bow-saw doesn't break; it's old.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2020 9:10:51 GMT
Oh Sphinx-Cameron what a "feather in your cap"(see what I mean about cliches!) if your book was made into a movie. Some Hollywood adaptions are even good like "The Color Purple" or "Atonement" not forgetting "The Wizard of Oz"> Think how you could gloat at the finger-pointers. Try S-C,like Ron is always telling us "You have to push your books." I know from everything I've read about your very hard life, looking after small children and caring for a wife in pain, plus your work on the land, it doesn't give you a lot of time, but wouldn't it be glorious if they made a film of one of your books. GOOD LUCK.
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Post by ronmiller on Feb 1, 2020 13:06:22 GMT
Oh Sphinx-Cameron what a "feather in your cap"(see what I mean about cliches!) if your book was made into a movie. Some Hollywood adaptions are even good like "The Color Purple" or "Atonement" not forgetting "The Wizard of Oz"> Think how you could gloat at the finger-pointers. Try S-C,like Ron is always telling us "You have to push your books." I know from everything I've read about your very hard life, looking after small children and caring for a wife in pain, plus your work on the land, it doesn't give you a lot of time, but wouldn't it be glorious if they made a film of one of your books. GOOD LUCK. Larika is right: Hollywood does often do a very poor job in adapting books to film...but by the same token, it can also do a superb job (the recent Life of Pi comes to mind). So much so that there are films that have become much better known and even more highly regarded than the books they were based on. And a movie can even be unfaithful to much of a book and still be a classic. Disney's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea comes to mind (since I am a Verne fan). While it strays from the book all over the place, it is still an excellent film and does, at least, do a good job in conveying the spirit and style of the novel. One thing that is often hard for an author or a devoted fan to remember is that a movie and a book are two very different things. If for no other reason, than that a movie has to tell the same story in 90 minutes that a book might have taken 500 pages to accomplish. There are really two main ways in which to get a book seen by a producer. One is to have a producer, director or writer run across the novel on their own. The other is to have the book (or, better yet, a treatment) submitted by an agent. Sadly but understandably, most film makers will not even open a package if it contains an unsolicited book, manuscript or treatment. It's frustrating but one can see their point given how many lawsuits have been instituted by authors who think their work has been stolen or plagiarized.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Feb 1, 2020 13:06:44 GMT
Oh Sphinx-Cameron what a "feather in your cap"(see what I mean about cliches!) if your book was made into a movie. Some Hollywood adaptions are even good like "The Color Purple" or "Atonement" not forgetting "The Wizard of Oz"> Think how you could gloat at the finger-pointers. Try S-C,like Ron is always telling us "You have to push your books." I know from everything I've read about your very hard life, looking after small children and caring for a wife in pain, plus your work on the land, it doesn't give you a lot of time, but wouldn't it be glorious if they made a film of one of your books. GOOD LUCK. While the thought of Hollywood making an adaptation that actually was fairly close to the book sounds nice, it would require a lot of CGI work.
The problem remains it costs money to get a Kirkus review, and our finances won't begin to ease until next year.
As for gloating, after decades of ad hoc studying human behavior I've never understood the purpose. It doesn't change the past, and gloating can only have a negative impact on the future while making the present less satisfying. With some people the best outcome is simply outliving them.
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Post by ronmiller on Feb 1, 2020 13:54:25 GMT
Boy, has this thread ever strayed from the topic of custom typefaces!
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Post by ronmiller on Feb 1, 2020 13:56:38 GMT
By the bye, seemingly unlikely things can happen. A book that I wrote 20 years ago---The Art of Chesley Bonestell---has been out of print for nearly that long. Yet it became the basis for a feature documentary that premiered last Spring at the Newport Beach Film Festival. So one can never tell!
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