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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 4:37:05 GMT
Not only do I agree, but I have always said this. I don't like it when someone calls my babies or any animals, "it." They are "he" and "she." Not "it." They are living beings, not inanimate objects.
NPR STORY I so agree, I have said for ages as stated in the Scott Simon article "People and animals share an immense capacity to feel," It's the reason my whole family became vegetarians. However I never push vegetarianism on people but I do remind them that animals have feelings. www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/150714-animal-dog-thinking-feelings-brain-science |
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Post by benziger on Apr 5, 2021 9:54:51 GMT
It's not quite that simple. Is a tree a living being? A fungus (After all, it is known that fungi spread messages from plants to other plants via their mycelia.)? A chest of drawers made of wood that expands and contracts depending on the humidity even after years?
How do we do it e.g. in German, for example? There are three articles, classically called "masculine", "feminine" and "neuter". And then I read in the dictionary "das Mädchen" (girl, neuter) or "die Sonne" (sun, feminine). The solution is actually in the following facts: there is genus and sexus: grammatical and biological gender. They must not be mixed, otherwise we will get into the devil's kitchen and never get out of it. | ☼ | not human (neuter?)
| the sun (n)
| die Sonne (f)
| le soleil (m)
| il sole (m)
| | ☾ | not human (neuter?)
| the moon (n)
| der Mond (m)
| la lune (f)
| la luna (f)
| | ♀ | female human
| the girl (n)
| das Mädchen (n)
| la fille (f)
| la figlia (f)
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| not human (neuter?) | the team (n)
| die Mannschaft (f)
| une équipe (f)
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| | ☆ | not human (neuter?) | the star (n)
| der Stern (m)
| une étoile (f)
| la stella (f)
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You may ad other languages as e.g. Korean or Lingala with 14 word classes (not only 2 as in Italian or French or 3 as in German). How would yoou like to deal with that? |
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Post by Ken on Apr 5, 2021 10:22:18 GMT
Too deep for a simple soul like me.  An interesting thread on another board discussed whether or not it’s nice to refer to or address someone by their surnames. |
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Post by potet on Apr 5, 2021 11:36:48 GMT
"It" is the standard pronoun when no gender is mentioned: child > it; dog > it, etc. If the gender is mentioned, "he" is used for the masculine, and "she" for the feminine. The default gender in English is the masculine, e.g. the victim > he (reported by someone who didn't know the victim was a woman). You cannot change the grammar just to please yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2021 12:58:38 GMT
"It" is the standard pronoun when no gender is mentioned: child > it; dog > it, etc. If the gender is mentioned, "he" is used for the masculine, and "she" for the feminine. The default gender in English is the masculine, e.g. the victim > he (reported by someone who didn't know the victim was a woman). You cannot change the grammar just to please yourself. I didn't know that potet, it's very interesting. I checked out a few places on the internet and when the dog's gender was named the pronoun he or she was used not it. "Bella was rescued from the River Trent near Long Lane, Farndon, near Newark, on January 6. Two dog walkers saw her struggling in the water after she was left to drown with her lead tied to a large rock."However in this sentence there is no gender but a masculine pronoun is used like for humans. " If your dog has fallen into water or you think he may have inhaled water, you should seek veterinary treatment even if there are no symptoms." wagwalking.com/condition/drowning-near-drowning
Should "it" have been used here potet . Perhaps ignoring the grammatical rule is becoming popular. |
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Apr 5, 2021 13:25:33 GMT
Another perspective is the gender pronouns used for animals [including humans] depends on how a person perceives the animal in question.
The best practice may be when in doubt, the gender neutral pronoun ze can be substituted.
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Post by benziger on Apr 5, 2021 14:24:14 GMT
Another perspective is the gender pronouns used for animals [including humans] depends on how a person perceives the animal in question. The best practice may be when in doubt, the gender neutral pronoun ze can be substituted. I observe (unfortunately) something quite different here in the German-speaking world. In case of doubt, the femina is used so as not to be attacked by feminists.
Examples: "das Unternehmen" [the company] (neuter) -> grammatically correct it becomes she (as in "die Firma" [the firm] (feminine). "das Mädchen" (the girl) (neuter) -> grammatically correct it becomes she, because girls are biologically (not grammatically) feminine. "das Mami" (neutrum) according to the dictionary becomes "die Mami" (feminine) because mothers are biologically (not grammatically) feminine.
In a town parliament with a left-wing majority, a parliamentary motion was only admitted at the behest of a judge. At first it was not even admitted to the vote because the (female) interpellant used the traditional spelling, which traditionally applies to all people but is interpreted by feminists as "only for men". It was argued that the proposal did not comply with equality legislation. In that city and increasingly in other places, nouns are neutralised, e.g. teacher -> those that are teaching; pupils -> those that are learning (So you can read about a teacher training course instead of traditionally "The teachers are listening to the professor." -> 'new speak' "Those that are teaching are listening the one that is lecturing.")
The mistake these people make is in their ignorance of language construction. In this case, German is structured like English. The root of the word is followed by a syllable, which turns the word into a person who does that (+er):
teach +er = teacher
learn +er = learner
bake +er = baker
Whether it is a man or a woman cannot be determined from this linguistically.
In German, one can add +in. This means affiliation. Lehr+er=teacher, Lehr+er+in=originally: wife of the teacher; today also female teacher. From which some draw the reverse conclusion that "Lehrer" is only a male teacher.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Apr 5, 2021 17:03:49 GMT
Another perspective is the gender pronouns used for animals [including humans] depends on how a person perceives the animal in question. The best practice may be when in doubt, the gender neutral pronoun ze can be substituted. I observe (unfortunately) something quite different here in the German-speaking world. In case of doubt, the femina is used so as not to be attacked by feminists.
Examples: "das Unternehmen" [the company] (neuter) -> grammatically correct it becomes she (as in "die Firma" [the firm] (feminine). "das Mädchen" (the girl) (neuter) -> grammatically correct it becomes she, because girls are biologically (not grammatically) feminine. "das Mami" (neutrum) according to the dictionary becomes "die Mami" (feminine) because mothers are biologically (not grammatically) feminine.
In a town parliament with a left-wing majority, a parliamentary motion was only admitted at the behest of a judge. At first it was not even admitted to the vote because the (female) interpellant used the traditional spelling, which traditionally applies to all people but is interpreted by feminists as "only for men". It was argued that the proposal did not comply with equality legislation. In that city and increasingly in other places, nouns are neutralised, e.g. teacher -> those that are teaching; pupils -> those that are learning (So you can read about a teacher training course instead of traditionally "The teachers are listening to the professor." -> 'new speak' "Those that are teaching are listening the one that is lecturing.")
The mistake these people make is in their ignorance of language construction. In this case, German is structured like English. The root of the word is followed by a syllable, which turns the word into a person who does that (+er):
teach +er = teacher
learn +er = learner
bake +er = baker
Whether it is a man or a woman cannot be determined from this linguistically.
In German, one can add +in. This means affiliation. Lehr+er=teacher, Lehr+er+in=originally: wife of the teacher; today also female teacher. From which some draw the reverse conclusion that "Lehrer" is only a male teacher.
How a language is used by different members of a particular society can get tangled in a hurry due to, case in point, those who haven't trained linguistically.
Throw biology and psychology into the mix and the lack of knowledge can get almost sadly hilarious at times. Consider a tetragametic chimera kitten; one individual with two different genetic lines. If 38XX/38XX the animal is female while with 38XY/38XY the animal is male. Yet in a case of 38XX/38XY the animal is in a very real sense both male and female since different genetic lines are present. It should be noted humans have such chimeric individuals as well. When it comes to kittens most people don't care which pronoun is used, while when it comes to chimeric humans peoples' reactions can get negative in a hurry.
One concept from predictive trend analysis I'm teaching my replacements is no matter how simple you think something is or want it to be forget preconceptions and look deeper, because many things are often not as simple as we'd like them to be.
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Post by potet on Apr 5, 2021 22:02:38 GMT
Larika, didn't you realize you were just illustrating what I said?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2021 3:16:33 GMT
Larika, didn't you realize you were just illustrating what I said? I agree that the first sentence illustrated your point about known gender. However in the second example i was pointing out that the gender wasn't known but a masculine pronoun is used like for humans. "If your dog has fallen into water or you think he may have inhaled water, you should seek veterinary treatment even if there are no symptoms." Here "he" is used even though the gender is not known, they did not say "you think it may have inhaled water." |
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Post by benziger on Apr 6, 2021 9:50:06 GMT
Here "he" is used even though the gender is not known, they did not say "you think it may have inhaled water." In German, the genus (grammatical gender) is known, so you can say he/she/it following the article (der/die/das): animals with female grammatical gender in German
| animals with male grammatical gender in German | animals with neuter grammatical gender in German | Katze (cat)
Kuh (cow)
Maus (mouse)
Geiss (goat)
Ente (duck)
| Hund (dog)
Tiger (tiger)
Löwe (lion)
Vogel (bird)
Fisch (fish)
| Kamel (camel)
Dromedar
Büsi (cat)
Huhn (chicken)
Kalb (calve)
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It is different when I distinguish the biological sex: cock, hen, chick (m/f/n). |
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