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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2021 3:59:37 GMT
When someone wants to put something, anything, in your body, without longterm testing, and when you see hundreds of doctors and scientists decide not to allow anyone to put something in their bodies, then you are permitted to decline. Or, you should be. Unless your body belongs to the state. It's the only thing that's truly ours. Different from traffic lights. There really isn't that much difference.
True, you can decline to get vaccinated as long as there isn't a law requiring you to get a vaccine due to public risk. By the same token, you have to accept restrictions which may be imposed upon you for declining to get vaccinated.
Had I been impatient two weeks ago a dufus hauling roughly 5,200 lbs [~2,358 kg] of round hay bales would have demolished my vehicle and likely killed me because he was in a hurry and declined to stop at the sign.
Regardless, in either scenario someone declines doing something for whatever reason and if the person in question is lucky, there's no bad outcome.
Think of it as a form of risk management. The spouse and I are vaccinated, because despite any minimal risk to us our children don't have the option to be vaccinated against COVID-19 yet. As such since they have no choice we are willing to minimize the risk to them and as a result everyone else we encounter. Really? It's not that different? Skipping traffic lights vs having a substance put in your body? One which you, yourself, have not tested. I have tested skipping a traffic light. It's pretty straightforward, and still, I will be allowed to enter a restaurant if I decide to go ahead and not wait for green at three in the morning. Pharmaceutical companies are rich, politicians like to play chess with humans. They are not my loving brother who I know for sure cares whether I live or die. I am not an experiment.
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Post by benziger on Sept 9, 2021 13:45:10 GMT
It is true that mRNA vaccines were first approved for the current vaccinations.
It is also true that these vaccines have been developed within a very short time. But this was only possible because the researchers were able to build on many years of research. mRNA was first described in 1961. The first animal trials took place from 1993; human trials from 2002. In 2017, the WHO approved RNA vaccines as a new class of active substances. The first RNA-based medication was approved in 2018. This was all before SARS-CoV-2. In some cases, decades before. And researchers were able to build on all this groundwork, adapting existing and already tested agents. I don't want to say with this compilation that I think animal testing is good or that I think someone is making too much or too little money, is corrupt or not. But the figures clearly show that 60 years of research have gone into a technology that has now been in use for four years. In my opinion, you can't say that it's short-term and immature. (I got the annual figures from Wikipedia, where you can also find the corresponding source references). Yes, Mag2024, the politicians are not my brothers either, even if I know some of them personally. If it were up to more, some measures would have come earlier last autumn. Also this summer. Others more systematically enforced. Others more pragmatically. Others never introduced.
What I mean by pragmatic: In our school, the school goes to a badminton hall for physical education because it doesn't have a gym. In their protection concept, they also require masks during sports. From next week, it will be compulsory for gym-goers to have a certificate. The school now has to cancel physical education classes because some of the physical education teachers have not been vaccinated, i.e. they do not have a certificate. A pragmatic solution would be to allow the school to continue to use the gym while adhering to its own protection concept (compulsory wearing of masks). But thanks to the sticklers for the letter of the law, there will be no more sports until 24 January next year. The problem is that most measures benefit my fellow human beings first and me second. And that by the time you notice something, it's already several days too late. If the other person runs over the signal, Retread-Retired-Cameron slams on the brakes, skids and has a "self-accident" - whose fault is that?
PS. Don't forget what's at the bottom of the page.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Sept 9, 2021 14:28:21 GMT
Benziger,
Thank you for posting information I was aware of but did not have time to collate due to other exigency [HVAC on its last legs and arranging replacement].
Now I'll go back to waiting for the first crew to come remove the old dying HVAC system and then the next crew to install the replacement.
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Post by Ken on Sept 9, 2021 17:55:38 GMT
One which you, yourself, have not tested. I have tested skipping a traffic light. It's pretty straightforward, and still, I will be allowed to enter a restaurant if I decide to go ahead and not wait for green at three in the morning. So go test it for yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2021 21:31:57 GMT
One which you, yourself, have not tested. I have tested skipping a traffic light. It's pretty straightforward, and still, I will be allowed to enter a restaurant if I decide to go ahead and not wait for green at three in the morning. So go test it for yourself. That's an intelligent response, Ken, and I appreciate it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2021 21:37:15 GMT
It is true that mRNA vaccines were first approved for the current vaccinations.
It is also true that these vaccines have been developed within a very short time. But this was only possible because the researchers were able to build on many years of research. mRNA was first described in 1961. The first animal trials took place from 1993; human trials from 2002. In 2017, the WHO approved RNA vaccines as a new class of active substances. The first RNA-based medication was approved in 2018. This was all before SARS-CoV-2. In some cases, decades before. And researchers were able to build on all this groundwork, adapting existing and already tested agents. I don't want to say with this compilation that I think animal testing is good or that I think someone is making too much or too little money, is corrupt or not. But the figures clearly show that 60 years of research have gone into a technology that has now been in use for four years. In my opinion, you can't say that it's short-term and immature. (I got the annual figures from Wikipedia, where you can also find the corresponding source references). Yes, Mag2024, the politicians are not my brothers either, even if I know some of them personally. If it were up to more, some measures would have come earlier last autumn. Also this summer. Others more systematically enforced. Others more pragmatically. Others never introduced.
What I mean by pragmatic: In our school, the school goes to a badminton hall for physical education because it doesn't have a gym. In their protection concept, they also require masks during sports. From next week, it will be compulsory for gym-goers to have a certificate. The school now has to cancel physical education classes because some of the physical education teachers have not been vaccinated, i.e. they do not have a certificate. A pragmatic solution would be to allow the school to continue to use the gym while adhering to its own protection concept (compulsory wearing of masks). But thanks to the sticklers for the letter of the law, there will be no more sports until 24 January next year. The problem is that most measures benefit my fellow human beings first and me second. And that by the time you notice something, it's already several days too late. If the other person runs over the signal, Retread-Retired-Cameron slams on the brakes, skids and has a "self-accident" - whose fault is that?
PS. Don't forget what's at the bottom of the page.
I have conformed for selfish reasons , and my instinct tells me it was a huge mistake. There is something seriously wrong with threatening people if they voice opposing opinions, something seriously wrong with being coerced into something. You can show me endless data that still doesn't add up.
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Post by potet on Sept 10, 2021 11:23:03 GMT
What is the relationship between this curious thread and book publishing?
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Post by Ken on Sept 10, 2021 13:44:04 GMT
General Discussion You can talk about anything here.
The few that inhabit this Forum know what they are doing. Very few newbies.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2021 16:38:48 GMT
What is the relationship between this curious thread and book publishing? I was comparing real life to a published book: 1984.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2021 16:41:00 GMT
What is the relationship between this curious thread and book publishing? I was comparing real life to a published book: 1984. Perhaps "comparing" is not the right word. Making an analogy? Invoking? Editing to add one more: Drawing a parallel? I don't know...speaking Greek all the time now. I have to speed up the reading so as not to lose my language.
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Post by potet on Sept 10, 2021 21:25:13 GMT
There is nothing orwellian in the current situation.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Sept 10, 2021 22:05:21 GMT
There is nothing orwellian in the current situation. True enough, it's not Orwellian.
Though the current situation is an echo of past pandemics. The first smallpox [Variola major / Variola minor] vaccine was developed in 1798, yet even in the early 1900s people were going to court to avoid being inoculated. Why? They didn't trust the vaccine and often thought their immune system afforded enough protection even though the estimated death rate after being infected was some 30% [for roughly 300,000,000 smallpox related deaths in the 20th Century].
Medical science has made a lot of advances in treatment and care over the last century, but there's a long way to go.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2021 5:28:45 GMT
There is nothing orwellian in the current situation. Silencing is Orwellian. The recreation of language, and many other parallels. But I'm out of this conversation since I'm one of the non-contaminators now. Besides that, I need to go tell my family they should be ashamed of themselves. You are free, however, to add to this "curious" thread.
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Post by JesusNinja on Sept 11, 2021 9:56:17 GMT
I recently watched an interview on TV showing the creator of Moderna Vaxx. They asked him if it was safe. He said no it is not safe. His own words were that the vaccines had not been thoroughly tested which takes up to five years. Also not FDA approved. Also these are not vaxxes, they are gene therapy. This is the reason for the huge resistance to taking it.The creator of it himself said there are side effects which they say there aren't but there are. Not saying don't take if that is what you want. But it should be everyone's choice to put a strange unknown substance into their own body. I myself have done nothing but wear a mask where required, sanitize my hands when out and eat right and exercise. I do a lot of Chinese medical exercises. For two years I've worked with seven people none of which wore a mask and none of us got sick nothing at all.
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Post by Ken on Sept 11, 2021 10:22:23 GMT
. For two years I've worked with seven people none of which wore a mask and none of us got sick nothing at all. You’ve just been lucky not to have been in areas where the virus is. Your other comments are just fake news.
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