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Post by potet on Jan 5, 2023 12:37:03 GMT
John ORTON has published He Wears a Blue Bonnet (ISBN 978-1-915338-34-1) that takes place at the time of Cromwell and is mainly located in South-Shields on the Tyne mouth, England. The main characters are Scottish lads made prisoners then indentured as workers in the salt-making plant. readersfavorite.com/book-review/he-wears-a-blue-bonnet He sent me a complimentary copy because he was one of my 6th-former students when I was the French assistant at the grammar-school for boys of South-Shields, Co. Durham, England, in 1965-66. He has a law degree from Oxford, and took to writing after he retired. I am 83. We rediscovered each other through a website created by an alumni who became a TV producer. To thank him, I presented him with a complimentary copy of my situational comedy Spiffies and Loonies. So far he has refrained from saying what he thinks of it. I don't know what to tell him about his book. He often spells words in such a way as to represent dialectal pronunciation, e.g. "Ach, weel I'll not gan to sea then" (p. 190). This feature does not really hamper my reading of the book, but it does prevent me from siding with the hero, Malky, while usually I follow a hero's adventures as though he were a friend. This has called my attention to the use of dialectal forms in a novel. I don't think it's a good idea. Adding too much picturesque with such a device clutters the story. The reader's attention is drawn to trivialities so that the plot becomes undiscernible. |
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Post by BlueAndGold on Jan 5, 2023 12:52:43 GMT
I suspect dialectal spelling and pronunciation can be very problematic when the reader is crossing from a native language. But personally I find that different pronunciations add tremendously to painting the pictures of the characters and situations of the story.
As an English speaker, your example immediately gives me clear and colorful hints of the character's background in just a very few words.
But yes, when the dialect is too long of a stretch, it can make things difficult for the reader and detract from the enjoyment.
Here are three or four small excerpts from an upcoming publication. I doubt if any American would have trouble with this dialectical illustration and it might richly color the scene. Just a few words call tell much about the character's background.
Would a Frenchman have trouble with it? Would a Scott or an Irish person or an Aussie?
...She saw the scars of shackles on his ankles and his wrists
And said, "You are a runaway. You've run from Master's whip."
"No, Missus, I'm a free man. Been free for two years.
"My Massa gimme papers an' a small farm to grow steers.
"He's a very good man and I had no call to leave,
"But bad men killed my woman, burned my cabin, stole my beef."
Geneva watched him closely and could see tears brim his eyes.
She saw he was sincerely heartbroken and told no lies.
"Then why were you in shackles? I can see the marks they made."
"He was my second Massa, Missus. First one's in the grave.
"An' I believe my good Massa is in the groun' now too.
"Them bad men didn't like him. Wasn't nuthin' I could do.
"So yes'm, you kin say I is a runaway by now,
"But I'm a free man runnin' to get north of here somehow.
And...
"Why, them is giant bolls of cotton floatin' in the sky.
"If'n I could lasso one I'd have enough to buy
"A woman an' some cattle from a Massa in Mizzoo.
"Yessuh, that's what Pappy tol' me. I believe him too.
"An' so that's why I run away when I was jus' a kid
"Figgerin' I'd do the thing my Pappy never did.
"The mountains here is taller an' it ain't so far to reach.
"A Good rope an' a good throw an' I'll git one for us each."
Another example illustrating a character of a different backgroud. To an American reader, this should immediately tell much about him with no further introduction:
His stare was deadly serious and plainly irritated.
The drifters both took note of this. The first one turned and stated,
"Curly, Hank, and Jack are in the saloon playing cards."
"Hell," the other spat, "I know damn well where them boys are."
"Well, fetch 'em then, so's they kin see the horses is brung back.
"Now, git!" The other trotted off. The first one watched and spat,
Then turned his gaze back to the mounted men who sat in silence.
"You soldier boys been ridin' far? You hung them theives by chance?
"Injuns coulda done it but we know that it ain't so.
"A bunch'a gandy dancers done it. That's the facts we know."
He looked from man to silent man then turned away, "Ah Hell.
"You boys don't know nuthin'. If you did you wouldn't tell."
And...
Vivus and the elder sat, a young man took his horse.
A feathered pipe was lighted and passed round before discourse
Was started with much earnest. (Vivus spoke slowly and signed.
The elder signed with English words and they both did just fine.)
With food and smoke the elder man's expression grew relaxed.
He showed concern for Vivus which broke through his stoic mask.
"Young men say you hunt two bad men. Say you path make war.
"Do not hunt dishonor. In you heart you wife, much more.
"Revenge make poison in man spirit. Make heart bad with anger.
"Walk that path no good. Bring you sadness, many danger."
The elder passed the pipe again to Vivus then leaned back.
Vivus drew a breath of smoke then slowly answered back,
Here are five different characters illustrated by their speech. Does it work for a Frenchman or a German too? Perhaps not...
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Jan 5, 2023 14:53:41 GMT
John ORTON has published He Wears a Blue Bonnet (ISBN 978-1-915338-34-1) that takes place at the time of Cromwell and is mainly located in South-Shields on the Tyne mouth, England. The main characters are Scottish lads made prisoners then indentured as workers in the salt-making plant. readersfavorite.com/book-review/he-wears-a-blue-bonnet He sent me a complimentary copy because he was one of my 6th-former students when I was the French assistant at the grammar-school for boys of South-Shields, Co. Durham, England, in 1965-66. He has a law degree from Oxford, and took to writing after he retired. I am 83. We rediscovered each other through a website created by an alumni who became a TV producer. To thank him, I presented him with a complimentary copy of my situational comedy Spiffies and Loonies. So far he has refrained from saying what he thinks of it. I don't know what to tell him about his book. He often spells words in such a way as to represent dialectal pronunciation, e.g. "Ach, weel I'll not gan to sea then" (p. 190). This feature does not really hamper my reading of the book, but it does prevent me from siding with the hero, Malky, while usually I follow a hero's adventures as though he were a friend. This has called my attention to the use of dialectal forms in a novel. I don't think it's a good idea. Adding too much picturesque with such a device clutters the story. The reader's attention is drawn to trivialities so that the plot becomes undiscernible.
It depends on how strong the dialect is being used. I understand "Ach, weel I'll not gan to sea then" fully. Then again I am English, and Scottish is no mystery to us! It only seems to be partial dialect though. Should it not be "ach, weel, a'll not gan ta sea then"? But even with the lesser version I could see those who speak English as a second language could have trouble with it.
I have no idea why you sort of dislike the hero because of how he talks. Is that not a tad classist? Maybe even racist! Not everyone speaks 'BBC English' (with a 'plum' in one's mouth.)
But dialect overused in a novel can be annoying.
And how many fully understand this ?
Upon that night, when fairies light
On Cassilis Downans dance,
Or owre the lays, in splendid blaze,
On sprightly coursers prance;
Or for Colean the rout is ta’en,
Beneath the moon’s pale beams;
There, up the Cove, to stray an’ rove,
Amang the rocks and streams
To sport that night …
Auto-text-correction would have fun with that.
www.theguardian.com/books/2014/oct/03/a-difficulty-with-dialect
examples.yourdictionary.com/dialect-examples-in-literature.html
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Jan 5, 2023 15:00:07 GMT
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Post by potet on Jan 5, 2023 18:15:59 GMT
Blue and Gold wrote: "Would a Frenchman have trouble with it?"
I had no problem understanding the man was a freed Black slave running from some carpet-bagger because all the picturesque forms you used are well known, and have belonged to the literary stock of the American southern dialect for a long time.
In the last piece, I understand Vivus and the elder are Amerindians.
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Post by potet on Jan 5, 2023 18:28:18 GMT
Kevin, I confess I tend to be "classist". I didn't say I disliked the hero. The problem is that of transparence and opacity as understood in linguistics. If you say: "Look!" to call somebody's attention to what's going on in the street, the window becomes transparent. If you say: "Look at this pane!" the window becomes opaque. To me, a foreign reader, dialectal forms opacify the text. They make me look at the words and tend to prevent me from seeing what they mean.  |
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Jan 6, 2023 1:22:43 GMT
Kevin, I confess I tend to be "classist". I didn't say I disliked the hero. That can be a problem, that I also suffer from, but it does not make them less a hero.
The problem is that of transparence and opacity as understood in linguistics. If you say: "Look!" to call somebody's attention to what's going on in the street, the window becomes transparent. Or it is already transparent, but I get what you mean.If you say: "Look at this pane!" the window becomes opaque. It could be transparent or opaque. The attention is being drawn towards the sheet of glass rather than the view through it. It could just be someone moaning it's dirty or broken.
The 'surrounding' words would give context.To me, a foreign reader, dialectal forms opacify the text. They make me look at the words and tend to prevent me from seeing what they mean. If taken too far even the some people from that area may not understand!
Some writers 'cheat'. They just say they are speaking in a strong accent, or dialect, and leave it at that. It can be hard to write an accent without changing the spelling of words, and that can even confuse the writer! |
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Jan 6, 2023 1:27:23 GMT
It's why some people dislike and even don't understand Shakespeare. Not because it's a dialect or accent, it's just ye olde English with many words no longer in use.
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Post by potet on Jan 6, 2023 10:02:50 GMT
A long time ago, I tried to read a novel in Scottish English. I gave up after a few pages. |
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Jan 7, 2023 1:00:45 GMT
It has to be assumed that at one time everyone spoke the same language. It's only when groups spread out across the world and became isolated that words began to be pronounced differently over 1000s of years, but many modern words can be traced back quite a way, even though they did not sound the same.
I often wonder who made up the first words for things. Once someone said "look at that tree" and was replied to with "what's a tree?" Were there fights over what to call things? "That's not a tree! it's a werty!" "No it's not! It's a harbunkle! Obviously!" Who got the final vote? The one with the biggest stick? Or whatever they called it.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Jan 7, 2023 1:03:05 GMT
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Jan 7, 2023 1:08:41 GMT
The Old Testament gods, and it more or less is plural, were not a friendly bunch. - And the lord said, "Look, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language there, so that they will not understand one another’s speech."
It's nonsense of course. |
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