Royalties from a traditional publisher.

I think that perhaps one flaw in Kevin's example is the implication that the the original manufacturer could sell the radio for £40. But each step in the distribution process---from manufacturer to wholesaler to retailer---added only a relatively small amount to the total. Buying the radio directly from the manufacturer might be cheaper for the consumer, but the company would probably not make much more than they would have otherwise. And, as I pointed out in my earlier reply, in order to sidestep all of this, the manufacturer would have to develop the kind of infrastructure required to distribute their product, from dedicated personnel and warehouses right down to owning their own outlet stores. This is something that would be nearly if not actually impossible for many manufacturers, especially small ones or ones producing a niche product. In fact, this is true even for very large companies (though there are a few that do operate their own outlets). It's simply cheaper and more cost-effective in the long run to work through the middlemen of wholesalers, distributors and retail stores. This is why you don't see Wrigley's, Kellog's or Procter and Gamble stores.

In a similar way, publishers offer a parallel service: taking on all of the minutiae that an individual author would find it difficult or impossible to undertake. For instance, aside from the production of the book itself, they can take out ads in magazines, newspapers and other media, they can schedule and pay for the expenses involved in book signings and media appearances and may even have salesmen that will go to bookstores and other outlets on a nationwide basis---all things that would be prohibitively expensive for an author...and at no cost to the author. Unlike the solo author, they can afford to do this because of the large number of writers they represent and the large volume of books they sell.

Think about it this way: if this were in any way impractical, unfair or an abandonment of rights, why would major best-selling authors stick with a publisher for years, even their entire careers in some cases? For instance, Stephen King has published through Scribner's for more than 25 years. In fact, about five years ago Scribner's made a deal with King in which they acquired North American and Open Market print, e-book, and audio rights to almost the entirety of King's body of work. "It’s a no-brainer, really,” he explained. “Good publishing and good relationships equals happy writers and long shelf life. I know from experience that this group of people—at Scribner, at Pocket, at Simon & Schuster Audio, and throughout the company—values the work I do, and wants to find as many readers as possible for the books I write, both now and in the future. Trusting them with this large body of work is my pleasure. We are excellent allies and good friends.”

Since I don't think that anyone would accuse King of being a bad businessman, I think that this says a lot. It is certainly not an isolated case, either. Bloomsbury has been JK Rowlings' UK publisher and Scholastic her US publisher ever since her first book in 1997. And again, I don't think that anyone would accuse Rowling of being naive. I can even speak closer to home. I have mentioned before my friend Lois Bujold. She is a best-selling science fiction and fantasy author who has had a successful and happy relationship with Baen Books for 37 years.

I think that perhaps one flaw in Kevin's example is the implication that the the original manufacturer could sell the radio for £40.

They can. It's called Direct selling, as I said did I not? Although people do expect items to be cheaper if bought direct from the maker, but it's not always the case, especially if the maker also sells via retailers. I have been involved in it, Ron.

But each step in the distribution process---from manufacturer to wholesaler to retailer---added only a relatively small amount to the total. Buying the radio directly from the manufacturer might be cheaper for the consumer, but the company would probably not make much more than they would have otherwise. And, as I pointed out in my earlier reply, in order to sidestep all of this, the manufacturer would have to develop the kind of infrastructure required to distribute their product, from dedicated personnel and warehouses

They have to do that anyway, I have worked for companies that did it, Ron, and nowadays the internet is a great boon to selling direct. (Here's just one portal example. (Almost as big as Amazon)   sale.alibaba.com/pages/dulrp6yxc/index.html?spm=a2700.8293689.HomeLeftCategory.ditem.2ce267afSjms4D&path=/pages/dp70z8d77/index.html )

right down to owning their own outlet stores.

Yes, that too, but it's still cutting out many middlemen, but nowadays they don't bother with shops, they have one on the internet. Even long  established names have shut their shops in favour of the internet, or gone out of business totally because their management did not keep up with the times. It's quite distressing how many old trading names have gone to the wall.

This is something that would be nearly if not actually impossible for many manufacturers, especially small ones or ones producing a niche product.

Hardly, it's happening more and more each year.

In fact, this is true even for very large companies (though there are a few that do operate their own outlets). It's simply cheaper and more cost-effective in the long run to work through the middlemen of wholesalers, distributors and retail stores. This is why you don't see Wrigley's, Kellog's or Procter and Gamble stores.


They do it that way still because the infrastructure is already in place and has been for decades, but many small outlets have gone bust because they cannot compete with massive concerns like Walmart who buy direct from the makers, cutting out wholesalers. But the massive shops are also on line, having to create a different type of infrastructure. Some newish ones don't have shops at all. ( www.ocado.com/webshop/startWebshop.do )


In a similar way, publishers offer a parallel service: taking on all of the minutiae that an individual author would find it difficult or impossible to undertake. For instance, aside from the production of the book itself, they can take out ads in magazines, newspapers and other media, they can schedule and pay for the expenses involved in book signings and media appearances and may even have salesmen that will go to bookstores and other outlets on a nationwide basis---all things that would be prohibitively expensive for an author...and at no cost to the author. Unlike the solo author, they can afford to do this because of the large number of writers they represent and the large volume of books they sell.


Well, indeed, we do know that, but some have made a decent living selling direct from their own websites, as well as the usual online outlets such as Amazon, and they have usually also used the entire gambit of free input to the net, even if only using Facebook.  www.entrepreneur.com/article/283832  but not only that, many publishers do sell direct. One often see adverts in the back of paperbacks. Here's just one   shop.penguin.co.uk/?&utm_source=Penguin.co.uk&utm_medium=Linked_text&utm_campaign=Menu_Bar_Penguin_Shop_26_06


Think about it this way: if this were in any way impractical, unfair or an abandonment of rights, why would major best-selling authors stick with a publisher for years, even their entire careers in some cases? For instance, Stephen King has published through Scribner's for more than 25 years. In fact, about five years ago Scribner's made a deal with King in which they acquired North American and Open Market print, e-book, and audio rights to almost the entirety of King's body of work. "It’s a no-brainer, really,” he explained. “Good publishing and good relationships equals happy writers and long shelf life. I know from experience that this group of people—at Scribner, at Pocket, at Simon & Schuster Audio, and throughout the company—values the work I do, and wants to find as many readers as possible for the books I write, both now and in the future. Trusting them with this large body of work is my pleasure. We are excellent allies and good friends.”


He does it because it's easy from him. Simple. He writes, he gets published, he sits back and takes the dosh, but some established names have gone independent, also. Think about it. We self-publish, but we do not make the books, the cost of setting up to do so is horrific.


Since I don't think that anyone would accuse King of being a bad businessman, I think that this says a lot. It is certainly not an isolated case, either. Bloomsbury has been JK Rowlings' UK publisher and Scholastic her US publisher ever since her first book in 1997. And again, I don't think that anyone would accuse Rowling of being naive. I can even speak closer to home. I have mentioned before my friend Lois Bujold. She is a best-selling science fiction and fantasy author who has had a successful and happy relationship with Baen Books for 37 years.



Without scrolling back to why this 'Direct' subject came up, I don't recall it being about books 

Thank you Ron and Kevin

But...Since we are talking about established authors publishing independently, I think you will find that many if not most turn over the mechanics of doing that to a third party since, frankly, most authors would rather be spending their time writing their next book than devoting every waking moment to marketing their last one. As one author put it: "Self-published authors should expect to spend only 10% of their time writing and 90% of their time marketing." Bujold's ebooks, for instance, are all prepared and uploaded to Amazon, etc. by her agent once she has finished the manuscript. For many, the selling of their book is a lot of fun, something they enjoy doing. But there are those who would much rather be spending their time being creative.


Indeed. There are many blogs and 'How I made it in self-publishing' sites created by people who did pay experts to do all but the writing of the original for them. It gives the wrong impression of what Self-publishing is really. Such enterprises, as I have said before, are really just tiny publishing houses set up for and dealing with one person's books.


Think about it. We self-publish, but we do not make the books, the cost of setting up to do so is horrific.



Exactly. The publisher absorbs those costs so that traditional publishing costs the author nothing. Not only does the traditional publisher absorb all the costs of producing the book, from editing to cover design, as well as marketing, advertising and distributing it, they also pay the author a non-returnable advance up front. And once that is earned back, the author collects royalties from every copy sold.


Quite so, but I do recall yonks ago where people did actually make and sell books using off-the shelf machines. Photo copiers, or even those strange gestetner copier things, various types of edge binding machines and such. All usually paperbacks of course and very low, usually to order, runs. This is one type of machine, and still in use today    www.viking-direct.co.uk/en/search/?text=comb+binding  There's also this which produces a neater job and is pretty close to the methods used to bind mass created paperbacks.    www.viking-direct.co.uk/en/search/?text=thermabind