|
|
Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 22, 2023 23:31:41 GMT
In almost all fiction I read, every characters' thoughts are given. That's not realistic is it? Unless the main character can read minds, which is not usual.
Or only the thoughts of the main character are given. More realistic, if the writer is 'being' that central person. I prefer that method, if I do include thoughts at all.
It's very rare to 'hear' such thoughts in film or TV.
Also in most fiction the story jumps around from scene to scene to show you what other characters are up to. A handy method so the reader thinks "but I want to know what the others are doing now I am not 'watching' them! Did they survive?! Get back to them!" or whatever. Often, yes, because they may have what is called 'Plot Armor'.
But is that realistic? If other characters are out of view, or just hearing, of each other, or the main character, how do they know what they are doing or saying?
|
|
|
|
Post by potet on Sept 23, 2023 16:27:33 GMT
You taught me the concept of "plot armor". First time I come across it. Thanks.
Sometime the author isn't aware of where his plot is leading his characters. In my utopic and pornographic novel "Contes Lacunaires", a young Romanian, Daniel Atonescu, I thought would last until the end of the story, suddenly dies of hydrocution in one of the swimming pools of the Nautical Club of Barcelona during a holiday. I had to describe the cremation ceremony two days later, and one of his two brothers sang a Romanian pop number, that I had discovered some time earlier, whose title means "Linden Love", which made me do some research to understand this strange title, and discover it alluded to the marital love of Philemon and Baucis.
Here follows the French. You can always copy and paste it in Google translator if you are interested.
Le défunt en short et chemisette, incliné de 45° et encadré d’une composition florale a quelque chose d’irréel. De l’encens brûle au pied du cercueil. “Cette présentation vous convient-elle?” demande l’ordonnateur à Werner, Ovide et Arsène.
“Oui, c’est parfait,” dit Werner.
“Nous garderons une belle image de notre frère,” dit Ovide tandis qu’Arsène pleure, résigné.
Après l’écoute du Requiem, Ovide se lève et dit: “J’ai demandé au père Vidal de me conseiller une petite formule pour accompagner mon petit frère dans l’au-delà. Je la trouve très belle. La voici: ‘Le Seigneur est mon berger. Il me conduit jusqu’aux verts pâturages et quand je suis trop faible pour continuer à marcher, il me porte sur ses épaules’.”
Ovide et toute l’assistance fondent en larmes.
“Maintenant je passe la parole à mon frère Arsène.”
Arsène essuie ses larmes, se lève et s’adresse à Daniel.
“Drago, chéri, je vais te chanter le couplet d’une chanson que tu aimais tant. Je ne chante pas bien et elle ne convient pas à un enterrement, mais je l’ai en ce moment sur le cœur, comme si tu venais de me la demander. Si quelqu’un la connaît aussi, il peut enchaîner sur moi. C’est en roumain, je suis désolé pour les personnes qui ne le comprennent pas. Le titre, Dragostea din tei signifie ‘Amour de tilleul’. Comprenne qui pourra.
Note 1. Le lecteur intéressé par cette chanson peut l’écouter sur YouTube, chantée et dansée par le groupe moldave O-Zone à Top of the Pops.
Note 2. Le tilleul est le symbole de l’amour conjugal.
Baucis devient tilleul, Philémon devient chêne ;
On les va voir encore, afin de mériter
Les douceurs qu’en hymen amour leur fit goûter.
Ils courbent sous le poids des offrandes sans nombre.
Pour peu que des époux séjournent sous leur ombre,
Ils s’aiment jusqu’au bout, malgré l’effort des ans.
La Fontaine, Philémon et Baucis
Note 3. L’histoire de Philémon et de son épouse Baucis, un vieux couple sans enfant, est racontée par Ovide dans Les Métamorphoses. Jupiter et Mercure, déguisés en voyageurs, vont demander l’hospitalité de maison en maison, mais elle leur est partout refusée. Seuls acceptent de les recevoir Philémon et Baucis dans leur humble cabane, lesquels, en outre, sacrifient leur oie pour leur donner à manger. Les dieux révèlent alors leur véritable nature et leur ordonnent de se réfugier sur la montagne voisine avant d’inonder la vallée par un déluge pour en noyer les habitants inhospitaliers. Ils transforment ensuite l’humble demeure en un temple dont ils font du couple, selon leur souhait, les gardiens unis jusqu’à la mort. Lorsqu’ils décèdent, les deux époux sont transformés en arbres – Philémon, le mari, en chêne; Baucis, l’épouse, en tilleul.
La voix tremblante d’émotion, Arsène entonne cette chanson. Dès la fin du premier vers, Marius de sa belle voix grave, ferme et forte enchaîne sur lui. L’écho des deux voix produit un effet extraordinaire comme si une troisième, inaudible, s’était jointe à eux, celle de Daniel manifestant son ultime présence avant de s’anéantir.
|
|
|
|
Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Sept 23, 2023 18:49:39 GMT
TV and movies don't tend to share thoughts because the medium is audio-visual and offers enough clues as to what's going on. This explains why screenplay adaptations generally tend to differ from the books being adapted.
|
|
|
|
Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 23, 2023 23:14:13 GMT
You taught me the concept of "plot armor". First time I come across it. Thanks.
One clue as to the survival chances of a character in a TV series is if they are in the next episode. (And I think that should be armour, sorry, but it never looks right!)
Sometime the author isn't aware of where his plot is leading his characters. In my utopic and pornographic novel "Contes Lacunaires", a young Romanian, Daniel Atonescu, I thought would last until the end of the story, suddenly dies of hydrocution in one of the swimming pools of the Nautical Club of Barcelona during a holiday.
I don't see why that should make a difference. If the main character is not there to see it happen, he/she will find out later no doubt. But once you have written the death, then you know it's happened, and can retrospectively adjust the prior story if need be. The good thing about writing is you can go back to edit things, knowing what will happen in the future, if you like. I never plan a whole plot and constantly go back and forth adjusting stuff. It's often how a story expected to be short can grow and grow. Writing fiction can be like time travel.
I had to describe the cremation ceremony two days later, and one of his two brothers sang a Romanian pop number, that I had discovered some time earlier, whose title means "Linden Love", which made me do some research to understand this strange title, and discover it alluded to the marital love of Philemon and Baucis.
Well I have no idea who that is, but I hope you gained permission to use it, if need be, or credit it at least.
|
|
|
|
Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 23, 2023 23:28:22 GMT
TV and movies don't tend to share thoughts because the medium is audio-visual and offers enough clues as to what's going on. This explains why screenplay adaptations generally tend to differ from the books being adapted.
There is some TV and film where thoughts are used. One of them was a PI series years ago. I forget which. Mike Hammer? (-The dame looks like she'd been dragged through a hedge, nice pegs though-). |
|
|
|
Post by potet on Sept 24, 2023 9:54:42 GMT
I had to describe the cremation ceremony two days later, and one of his two brothers sang a Romanian pop number, that I had discovered some time earlier, whose title means "Linden Love", which made me do some research to understand this strange title, and discover it alluded to the marital love of Philemon and Baucis. Well I have no idea who that is, but I hope you gained permission to use it, if need be, or credit it at least.Yes, feel free to use it; everybody can; it belongs to general knowledge. As regards the lyrics of the song, I have put them along their French translation in my full private edition, but only the title in the 18+ public edition. |
|
|
|
Post by potet on Sept 24, 2023 9:56:22 GMT
You can always use the "stream of consciousness" device to let the reader / the audience know what the character is thinking.
|
|
|
|
Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 24, 2023 22:37:56 GMT
I had to describe the cremation ceremony two days later, and one of his two brothers sang a Romanian pop number, that I had discovered some time earlier, whose title means "Linden Love", which made me do some research to understand this strange title, and discover it alluded to the marital love of Philemon and Baucis. Well I have no idea who that is, but I hope you gained permission to use it, if need be, or credit it at least.Yes, feel free to use it; everybody can; it belongs to general knowledge. As regards the lyrics of the song, I have put them along their French translation in my full private edition, but only the title in the 18+ public edition. |
|
|
|
Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 24, 2023 22:43:40 GMT
You can always use the "stream of consciousness" device to let the reader / the audience know what the character is thinking.
Going off at a tangent. Most fiction seems to be written as if it's a story being told. Past tense. I prefer to write as if it's happening then and there, apart from the occasional flashbacks. |
|
|
|
Post by potet on Sept 25, 2023 15:17:53 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by potet on Sept 25, 2023 15:23:27 GMT
Going off at a tangent. Most fiction seems to be written as if it's a story being told. Past tense. I prefer to write as if it's happening then and there, apart from the occasional flashbacks.In French, the tense called _passé simple_ (simple past) is only used in fiction narrative. It is never used in spoken French so that French speakers with little education are unable to use it. When they want to write fiction, they use the tense called _présent simple_ (simple present). For a majority of educated people, their French is regarded as vastly inferior to what is expected from a writer. |
|
|
|
Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 26, 2023 0:04:10 GMT
Going off at a tangent. Most fiction seems to be written as if it's a story being told. Past tense. I prefer to write as if it's happening then and there, apart from the occasional flashbacks.In French, the tense called _passé simple_ (simple past) is only used in fiction narrative. It is never used in spoken French so that French speakers with little education are unable to use it. When they want to write fiction, they use the tense called _présent simple_ (simple present). For a majority of educated people, their French is regarded as vastly inferior to what is expected from a writer.  ). What you say is an insult to the French education system! |
|
|
|
Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Sept 26, 2023 0:41:19 GMT
In French, the tense called _passé simple_ (simple past) is only used in fiction narrative. It is never used in spoken French so that French speakers with little education are unable to use it. When they want to write fiction, they use the tense called _présent simple_ (simple present). For a majority of educated people, their French is regarded as vastly inferior to what is expected from a writer. Potet actually didn't state what you think he did. He mentioned a specific past tense used in writing French but not normally used spoken French. French, like Spanish [among others] has verb tenses you might use in writing, speaking, or only in writing, or only in speaking, or both writing and speaking.
As I told a judge decades ago [when I acted as a pro bono interpreter, long story], interpreting between English and Spanish is normally not a one-for-one word match from one language to another and back.
I believe England is well acquainted with the concept of 'little education': you have people educated to enter the trades versus people educated to go to college. Potet can correct me if I'm wrong about the point.
|
|
|
|
Post by potet on Sept 26, 2023 10:47:04 GMT
In French, the tense called _passé simple_ (simple past) is only used in fiction narrative. It is never used in spoken French so that French speakers with little education are unable to use it. When they want to write fiction, they use the tense called _présent simple_ (simple present). For a majority of educated people, their French is regarded as vastly inferior to what is expected from a writer. The French educational system, that used to be among the best in the world, has been declining over the past few decades because the people in charge of it are despicable trendies in awe at what they do in U.S. grade schools and so eager to emulate the crazy psychologists behind it. |
|
|
|
Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Sept 26, 2023 15:57:37 GMT
I find it hard to believe that it's possible for anyone to speak without using past tense. It would be confusing. "I look at that" ? when I looked at it last week? ("I looked at that"). I see no difference between speaking and writing. What about reading? And what do you call little education? It's basic education, schooled and acquired (which is past tense ). What you say is an insult to the French education system! The French educational system, that used to be among the best in the world, has been declining over the past few decades because the people in charge of it are despicable trendies in awe at what they do in U.S. grade schools and so eager to emulate the crazy psychologists behind it. I stand corrected, though many of the failings with the US education system are due more to politicians interfering with what many of them don't understand rather than psychologists. The politicians claim it's about making education better for less money expended but the reality is it's about pushing their agenda while teaching kids just enough to be able to fill out the forms [when lucky] while following basic instructions.
Too many school districts here [though not all] have schools for college bound students and different schools for those destined to enter the general labor pool. I have worked with people who never had a history course after sixth grade, who had no clue about things like the World Wars among other things. Every time I hear someone state minimum wage was never meant for adults to support themselves at a basic acceptable level I know I'm hearing someone showing how little they know.
Now back to watching "Zorro", starring Clint Eastwood.
|
|
). What you say is an insult to the French education system!