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Post by adrianallan on Apr 7, 2020 8:15:09 GMT
The bane of all self pubishers is of course typos. And, of course, self publishing hasn't got the best of reputations for proof-checking.
Therefore there is real need for us to have effective proof-checking systems.
The analogy I like to use is that of filter beds at a sewage plant. I run my books through a range of filters to look for mistakes. By the end of all of these filters, I hope that my book is "pure". These are:
1. Word - the first level - as mistakes are normally underlined in red or green for grammar
2. Grammarly - I use the free version, which picks up yet more typos
3. Natural reader. com. I subscribe to this website, where you copy chunks of text and it reads each word back to you - a great way of checking for mistakes or awkward turns of phrase
4. I sometimes offer a free book to people who agree to proof-read a few chapters, but this can prove quite expensive for a long book.
5. Printing it out on either PDF or paper - I don't know why, but when we change the format, we suddenly see all those mistakes we have missed on Word alone
Despite all of this, only this morining I noticed a small mistake in a footnote, which will mean yet another revision of the book and upload to Lulu.
So what methods do you all use to check for typos etc?
Does anybody know how professional publishers work - do they employ teams of proof-readers?
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Apr 7, 2020 10:43:22 GMT
Typos and errors are the bane of any publisher, not just the SP crowd. Last I checked, a Traditional Publishers would keep a typo log so if a book had a second print run the typo would be fixed.
The thing about Word , red and green underlines aren't always mistakes. You have to add words to a dictionary which is limited right out of the box. And what it highlights on grammar may be accepted usage.
Being a bit of an unusual case, I edit / proofread my own work. Write it, let it cool down in my mind for at least a few weeks, go in and hunt bugs, then do the same wait and hunt cycle. I rarely ever share a raw rough draft with anyone, because I know the work isn't ready and it is indeed rough. I like to find all [or the vast majority] of the "ticks", "fleas", and "nits" knowing that there will always be one or two more to find after 60K, 70K, or 100K words; it's inevitable.
Like a Trad publisher, I can get that manuscript pretty squeaky clean, and a year later find one word or one bit of punctuation to fix, perhaps an extra space to remove. Paid proofreaders do make mistakes as in something slips past, because I've got more than a few Traditionally Published books by famous authors where there's an odd typo or two. I've read work by an unpublished author, in the 250K word range without any typos or errors I or someone who is good at proofing work could find. That writer is pretty much a perfectionist.
Basically put, with the steps you're taking you're already doing due diligence, and other than paying people [which can get expensive in a hurry] with the realization that they're usually not going to be 125% perfect, either keep a revision log or do the odd revision when you must.
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Post by adrianallan on Apr 7, 2020 10:49:19 GMT
Typos and errors are the bane of any publisher, not just the SP crowd. Last I checked, a Traditional Publishers would keep a typo log so if a book had a second print run the typo would be fixed. The thing about Word , red and green underlines aren't always mistakes. You have to add words to a dictionary which is limited right out of the box. And what it highlights on grammar may be accepted usage. Being a bit of an unusual case, I edit / proofread my own work. Write it, let it cool down in my mind for at least a few weeks, go in and hunt bugs, then do the same wait and hunt cycle. I rarely ever share a raw rough draft with anyone, because I know the work isn't ready and it is indeed rough. I like to find all [or the vast majority] of the "ticks", "fleas", and "nits" knowing that there will always be one or two more to find after 60K, 70K, or 100K words; it's inevitable. Like a Trad publisher, I can get that manuscript pretty squeaky clean, and a year later find one word or one bit of punctuation to fix, perhaps an extra space to remove. Paid proofreaders do make mistakes as in something slips past, because I've got more than a few Traditionally Published books by famous authors where there's an odd typo or two. I've read work by an unpublished author, in the 250K word range without any typos or errors I or someone who is good at proofing work could find. That writer is pretty much a perfectionist. Basically put, with the steps you're taking you're already doing due diligence, and other than paying people [which can get expensive in a hurry] with the realization that they're usually not going to be 125% perfect, either keep a revision log or do the odd revision when you must. thanks We all know that heart-sinking momement when we notice a typo. And yes, I do see typos in so-called professionally-published books, sometimes too many for what you might expect. If anybody else has any more ideas, I would love to know.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Apr 7, 2020 10:53:16 GMT
My rule of thumb is if you have a fairly long MS and can get the typos under five the first time out you're doing pretty good.
Perfection is an ideal few if any will ever attain, but getting really close to it is an accomplishment.
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Post by adrianallan on Apr 7, 2020 11:08:39 GMT
My rule of thumb is if you have a fairly long MS and can get the typos under five the first time out you're doing pretty good. Perfection is an ideal few if any will ever attain, but getting really close to it is an accomplishment. My last book is 170k words, and I really hope that I have fewer than five - but I can never really know! As, we become "blind" to our mistakes, as I am sure you know. But I hope I have made a sufficiently big effort - the editing took four weeks.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Apr 7, 2020 11:30:56 GMT
Actually I'm not blind to my mistakes as I'm very aware I make them, but I also realize due to personal context [disabled spouse, three small children, other things to do as well] it's better to get the writing done while doing my best to not make any mistakes along the way [which is virtually impossible when one has to keep bouncing up to take care of something].
After the work has cooled down in my mind for at least several weeks, I make my first editing pass and it's like looking at someone else's work. Second pass is the same thing.
Put it into perspective, if you have only 5 typos in a 170K MS, that's an error rate of 0.0029412% and that's good.
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Post by BlueAndGold on Apr 7, 2020 11:41:09 GMT
As Sphinx said, you have done due diligence.
Do not fall into the perfectionist's trap. You will NEVER find 100% of the issues. Get it to where you are happy and move forward or you will never get your next project completed. Revisit it years later if you must, but move forward.
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Post by ronmiller on Apr 7, 2020 16:34:00 GMT
I would suggest using a human copy editor/proofreader rather than depending on software (especially when it comes to grammar).
The importance of an independent, objective reader cannot be overemphasized because, as you say yourself, it is too easy to "become blind to our mistakes."
Spellcheck et al are fine for the first pass while writing, but these have the all-too-obvious drawback of not being able to identify homophones. So you could easily wind up with "sale the boat" instead of "sail the boat."
naturalreader.com doesn't sound like too bad an idea, though I suspect that it would have the same problem with homophones. But...reading your work out loud yourself is an excellent idea. For one thing, it forces you to look at every word where there is always the danger when reading silently to see what you think you wrote rather than what you actually did.
Professional publishers divide the work up among different levels.
The first is the editor, who is responsible for the overall sense and structure of the book. Next is the copy-editor, who is responsible for the book's grammar, punctuation, spelling, syntax, etc. Often the job of the editor and copy-editor will overlap. This step in the book's editing process may have numerous iterations, with the MS going back and forth between the author and the editors until it is deemed finished. (Editors do not themselves make changes to books. They only indicate where changes and corrections need to be made. It is the author's responsibility to implement them.) Finally, there is the proofreader who checks the final version of the book against all of the changes that were supposed to have been made, and also double-checks to make sure there were no overlooked mistakes.
Even after all of this, errors will still slip in, but as sphinx-cameron pointed out, they are usually very small in number in proportion to the size of the book.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Apr 7, 2020 18:56:22 GMT
Adrianallan,
A slightly different prospect to envision, if you've written a substantial novel or nonfiction work consider submitting it for traditional publication after you've stomped very bug you can find.
I shared my most recent MS with four people not because I think it's anywhere in the vicinity of being close to being ready to publish, but because I want opinions on if it sparks interest in readers from different points in life. Having finally seen an example of a query letter, when June rolls around I can put om the editor's hat, and this one I'll submit.
If you want a larger audience, the Trad route may be a way for you to expand and reach more readers. As many bugs as I've hunted down in my work, I know how tedious it can be. Personally, I'd rather be researching or writing than chasing bugs, other than the scorpions that keep finding a way into the house [which I don't mind throwing outside].
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Post by adrianallan on Apr 7, 2020 19:36:06 GMT
Adrianallan, A slightly different prospect to envision, if you've written a substantial novel or nonfiction work consider submitting it for traditional publication after you've stomped very bug you can find. I shared my most recent MS with four people not because I think it's anywhere in the vicinity of being close to being ready to publish, but because I want opinions on if it sparks interest in readers from different points in life. Having finally seen an example of a query letter, when June rolls around I can put om the editor's hat, and this one I'll submit. If you want a larger audience, the Trad route may be a way for you to expand and reach more readers. As many bugs as I've hunted down in my work, I know how tedious it can be. Personally, I'd rather be researching or writing than chasing bugs, other than the scorpions that keep finding a way into the house [which I don't mind throwing outside]. Thanks for the advice. I have obviously thought about the traditional route, and I am still open to it. There are a few reasons right now why self publishing suits me: 1. I am a bit of a maverick by nature and do things my own way 2. For my subject matter I have actually built up quite a stable and modest following, but proper advertising would obviously help 3. My last book was judged successful (in terms of reviews) but it did straddle a dangerous ground between academic and popular. I knew this approach would work, but I can imagine the book fitted into a sort of no-man's land for that reason. 4. I once wasted a long time formatting a book for a publisher, but never heard from them again, so it put me off the whole proceses. Many thanks for the advice, though
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Post by adrianallan on Apr 7, 2020 19:39:23 GMT
I would suggest using a human copy editor/proofreader rather than depending on software (especially when it comes to grammar). The importance of an independent, objective reader cannot be overemphasized because, as you say yourself, it is too easy to "become blind to our mistakes." Spellcheck et al are fine for the first pass while writing, but these have the all-too-obvious drawback of not being able to identify homophones. So you could easily wind up with "sale the boat" instead of "sail the boat." naturalreader.com doesn't sound like too bad an idea, though I suspect that it would have the same problem with homophones. But...reading your work out loud yourself is an excellent idea. For one thing, it forces you to look at every word where there is always the danger when reading silently to see what you think you wrote rather than what you actually did. Professional publishers divide the work up among different levels. The first is the editor, who is responsible for the overall sense and structure of the book. Next is the copy-editor, who is responsible for the book's grammar, punctuation, spelling, syntax, etc. Often the job of the editor and copy-editor will overlap. This step in the book's editing process may have numerous iterations, with the MS going back and forth between the author and the editors until it is deemed finished. (Editors do not themselves make changes to books. They only indicate where changes and corrections need to be made. It is the author's responsibility to implement them.) Finally, there is the proofreader who checks the final version of the book against all of the changes that were supposed to have been made, and also double-checks to make sure there were no overlooked mistakes. Even after all of this, errors will still slip in, but as sphinx-cameron pointed out, they are usually very small in number in proportion to the size of the book. Some very good advice here. If I could afford a professional copy-editor editor, I would obviously go down that route. It is interesting to learn about the different stages in publishing and the attention to detail does not surprise me.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Apr 7, 2020 20:46:48 GMT
Adrianallan, A slightly different prospect to envision, if you've written a substantial novel or nonfiction work consider submitting it for traditional publication after you've stomped very bug you can find. I shared my most recent MS with four people not because I think it's anywhere in the vicinity of being close to being ready to publish, but because I want opinions on if it sparks interest in readers from different points in life. Having finally seen an example of a query letter, when June rolls around I can put om the editor's hat, and this one I'll submit. If you want a larger audience, the Trad route may be a way for you to expand and reach more readers. As many bugs as I've hunted down in my work, I know how tedious it can be. Personally, I'd rather be researching or writing than chasing bugs, other than the scorpions that keep finding a way into the house [which I don't mind throwing outside]. Thanks for the advice. I have obviously thought about the traditional route, and I am still open to it. There are a few reasons right now why self publishing suits me: 1. I am a bit of a maverick by nature and do things my own way 2. For my subject matter I have actually built up quite a stable and modest following, but proper advertising would obviously help 3. My last book was judged successful (in terms of reviews) but it did straddle a dangerous ground between academic and popular. I knew this approach would work, but I can imagine the book fitted into a sort of no-man's land for that reason. 4. I once wasted a long time formatting a book for a publisher, but never heard from them again, so it put me off the whole proceses. Many thanks for the advice, though Ah, I don't really worry about crossing genres or the difference between academic and popular, being considered only with what will appeal to those willing to see the world from an altered [at least temporarily] perspective.
When it comes to publishers, as Ron let me know the query letter is an art form in and of itself. I've had rejections simply because I didn't know how to structure the query, regardless of how well I write or not. I've been able to lure readers male and female readers from 15 to 80+ into some of the realities I can posit, without any major advertising or promotion.
Take it for what it's worth. It's your decision after all, but from an interpreter's perspective perhaps next time you might want to reword the brush off. Me with my experience I'm rather accustomed to it, but others, possibly not so much.
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Post by ronmiller on Apr 7, 2020 20:49:45 GMT
I would suggest using a human copy editor/proofreader rather than depending on software (especially when it comes to grammar). The importance of an independent, objective reader cannot be overemphasized because, as you say yourself, it is too easy to "become blind to our mistakes." Spellcheck et al are fine for the first pass while writing, but these have the all-too-obvious drawback of not being able to identify homophones. So you could easily wind up with "sale the boat" instead of "sail the boat." naturalreader.com doesn't sound like too bad an idea, though I suspect that it would have the same problem with homophones. But...reading your work out loud yourself is an excellent idea. For one thing, it forces you to look at every word where there is always the danger when reading silently to see what you think you wrote rather than what you actually did. Professional publishers divide the work up among different levels. The first is the editor, who is responsible for the overall sense and structure of the book. Next is the copy-editor, who is responsible for the book's grammar, punctuation, spelling, syntax, etc. Often the job of the editor and copy-editor will overlap. This step in the book's editing process may have numerous iterations, with the MS going back and forth between the author and the editors until it is deemed finished. (Editors do not themselves make changes to books. They only indicate where changes and corrections need to be made. It is the author's responsibility to implement them.) Finally, there is the proofreader who checks the final version of the book against all of the changes that were supposed to have been made, and also double-checks to make sure there were no overlooked mistakes. Even after all of this, errors will still slip in, but as sphinx-cameron pointed out, they are usually very small in number in proportion to the size of the book. Some very good advice here. If I could afford a professional copy-editor editor, I would obviously go down that route. Well, there are sometimes ways and ways. For instance, a student majoring in English or Journalism might be willing to help you for a reasonable fee. Another possibility might be a high school teacher or even a writer for a local paper. There are two things that are most important: a working knowledge of English and an objective eye. It is interesting to learn about the different stages in publishing and the attention to detail does not surprise me. You might actually be surprised! I recently sent in what I thought was a really clean MS for my new YA science book. When the text came back there were dozens of corrections, questions and suggestions on every page. (And I should be used to that sort of thing by now!) The first were easy to take care of. The questions and suggestions underscored the benefit of having an objective reader: the editor looked at the MS as the book's intended reader would have, something almost impossible for me to do. For instance, simply because I already know the subject, it is too easy for me to gloss over something that actually needs more background and information. And errors can still creep in. A book I did twenty-odd years ago had two authors, an editor, a copy editor and a proofreader, all of whom went over the text two or three dozen times between when it was first submitted and the time the first proofs came back from the printer...and we still managed to overlook a misspelled subtitle that was in boldface right in the middle of a page!
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Apr 7, 2020 22:44:19 GMT
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