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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2020 22:38:05 GMT
Herr Benziger, As others have noted some clarity would be nice. It's an impossible task to be clear. They do not even know what they are getting into with this new condition.
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Post by JesusNinja on Jun 7, 2020 22:40:23 GMT
Is anyone else's books missing from online sites? On some sites my paperbacks are not listed as out of stock. Ebooks are listed as unavailable. Only showing for sale on Amazon U.S. , Barnes, and Apple. On non U.S. Amazon sites only my paperbacks are for sell. One of them did show my newest book there. But it's listed unavailable and published 4/15/2020. No where else for sale. This would explain the low sales
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Post by BlueAndGold on Jun 7, 2020 23:11:16 GMT
Let the buyers be the filters. The free market is always the best, and final arbiter. Censorship is not Lulu's job. They shouldn't stick their hands into a Tiger's cage.
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Post by ronmiller on Jun 8, 2020 13:01:37 GMT
I agree with B&G that it is disturbing to think that Lulu (and similar companies) may filter books based on its own standards of what seems appropriate.
To say that they are free to do whatever they like leads one really fast into a quandary: what about the bakery that refuses to provide a cake for a same-sex wedding? Why would that be wrong and Lulu be right in refusing to publish a book?
I think there is a fundamental difference between the two...the only problem is that Lulu finds itself balancing on a narrow tightrope. There are some things that would clearly be questionable: Books supporting pedophilia, for instance, or books promulgating racism or antisemitism, or books advocating violence. Both the Southern Poverty Law Center* and the FBI** have pretty clear guidelines as to what constitutes "hate." But it would be easy to slip too far and refuse to publish a book simply because Lulu disagrees with it and not because it advocates, say, rape, child molestation or the eradication of a religion or race. For instance, if Lulu refused to publish a book about Wicca because its CEO is an evangelical Christian, that would put it squarely in the position of the bakery. On the other hand, I think it would be right in refusing to publish a how-to manual on child pornography.
The decision of the bakery to refuse service on the basis of a customer's sexual orientation would put it clearly on the FBI's radar as a hate crime...just as an anti-gay book might be refused publication by Lulu. For example, books like "The Negro: What is His Ethnological Status?" and "The Negro a Beast" attempted to prove that blacks were, literally, soulless animals created for no other purpose than to serve whites. Or "The Mongol in Our Midst," that argued that blacks were closely related to gorillas. Or "The New Elements of Race Investigation," which claimed that "the blood particles of a Jew are completely different from those of a Nordic man." Or "Jews Must Live" (subtitled "An Account of the Persecution of the World by Israel on all the Frontiers of Civilization") that contained an appendix that asked "Do the Jews emit a peculiar odor?" (The author said "yes.") I think that Lulu would be perfectly justified in refusing to print and distribute books like these.
I think it is both disingenuous and naive to say, "Let the reader decide for themselves what is right and wrong." Books like these and countless others work very hard at sounding plausible and even scientific. They can be---as intended---very convincing, especially to a reader who has no reason to doubt what they say. "Oh, sure!" says the gun dealer who sold a loaded weapon to an angry drunk. "It was entirely up to him what he did with it."
---------------------------------------- *The SPLC defines "hate group" as "an organization that---based on its official statements or principles, the statements of its leaders, or its activities---has beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics...The organizations on our hate group list vilify others because of their race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation or gender identity."
**The FBI defines a "hate crime" "as a committed criminal offense which is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender’s bias(es) against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity, gender, or gender identity." In fact, the FBI has a very specific list of biases on which hate crimes are committed (and it is a pretty long list, too).
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jun 8, 2020 13:11:59 GMT
That's all well and good if everyone can agree on what "hateful" means. You would think it would be a no-brainer but no, there's actually a lot of disagreement on that score, and some of the things said that are labeled "hate" are downright ridiculous.
Gurki Bär wrote on facebook: - What does "hatful" mean exactly? - And how do the employees of Lulu check this?
Lulu always offers to publish books in 155 languages. I don't know how many employees Lulu has and how many languages each of them speaks. Considering the fact that the site is now in one language less with the latest update, it doesn't reflect too much language feeling.
- What happens if a book is reported as "hatful" in Tadjik, Lingala, Southern Soto or something? - Can Lulu even check whether this is a justified report - or just a mis-click - or one that's out to hurt a competitor? - Lulu distinguishes between books with their own ISBN under the responsibility of the publisher (Lulu is only a printer) - and books with Lulu-ISBN (Lulu is considered a publisher)?
These are the questions I would like to have answered.
Okay, I'll finally speak in Lulu's defense. Writing what an author's vision dictates has always been a contentious exercise for freelance authors, as mainstream media publishing houses will always advise authors to write what they want to read and yet only publish what the market dictates. It has ALWAYS been that the power to reach your audience is in the publisher's hands, and suddenly Lulu came on the market to give freelance authors a place where we can publish what we actually want to read--and by extension, see other readers reading. It is the ONLY publishing house where to power to dictate what the market will get is what the author wants to write. (And we all know from Spiderman that with great power comes great responsibility.)
But alas, Lulu has found that for some authors that is not gonna fly, and Lulu realizes that permitting such caustic rhetoric with their name on the spine of the book will get them into more trouble than the authors speaking such hate. I can only hope that Lulu will populate its complaint resolution team with a large enough staff (and well-versed enough) to handle such complaints with evenhanded intelligence--at least better than the "apparently random bludgeoning" that most outsourced Conflict Resolution departments utilize.
Do you have any guidelines on what constitutes 'hateful content' or are we being put at the mercy of the easily offended, the over sensitive and the politically spiteful? Will the 'review' include consultation with the author, or will we fall at the first snowflake with no appeal or redress?
I ask because my yet-to-be-published portfolio is mostly be reprints of Second World War military documentation; documents that are 'of their time'.
Given how you're struggling with your core competency at the moment, I am a bit nervous about you taking on the additional role of moral arbiter. Most countries already have laws to deal with this sort of thing, is that not enough?
Perhaps the concern is that you will be considered liable as 'the publisher' for our content? That's understandable, I suppose.
They raise some very good points. However, this kind of filtering would entail the reading of every single book in every single language. Perhaps the title and cover image are not hateful but the content is. As has been previously noted, there is no consensus on what constitutes "hateful" or "indecent".
You would think saying "It's wrong to force girls under the age of consent [as in not legally old enough to enter into a physical relationship] into an arranged marriage" would be considered acceptable, yet there actually are people who would take offense at that statement due to their belief system. Those people would consider the statement "hateful" and an attack upon their beliefs.
My point is what constitutes "hateful" or against "basic human decency" can be extremely subjective and completely dependent upon an individual reader's mores since there is no universally agreed upon definition of "basic human decency". The end result is a book most reasonable people would agree contains nothing of a hateful or indecent nature could be yanked due to one person's perspective.
Since Lulu Press is reviewing books based on what gets reported, what actually gets taken down and why is anyone's guess.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jun 8, 2020 14:13:29 GMT
Ron,
I basically agree with your points but I need to point out that promotion of certain ideas or acts in a book isn't the same as what a particular reader may think a book is promoting. For that matter, the number of people who actually comprehend legal definitions versus those who think a law says something it doesn't is disconcerting.
One book that comes to mind is "Lucifer's Hammer" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, published back in 1977. It is conceivable someone could interpret parts of the text as promoting cannibalism, underage sex, as well as pedophilia, when it doesn't. If that book were published today it doesn't take much stretching of the imagination to see someone wanting it banned due to its purported lack of basic human decency.
FBI and SPLC definitions on hate speech can be very useful guidelines but those guidelines aren't universally accepted around the world, and with writers and the audience of same living in varying polities at times with different standards of what constitutes hate speech Lulu Press needs to be very cautious on its tightrope.
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Post by ronmiller on Jun 8, 2020 14:16:57 GMT
There is always going to be a grey area between what constitutes "hate" or "indecency" (two entirely different things, I should emphasize, with the latter probably the more subjective of the two) and what is acceptable. But by the same token, I think there are things that are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum. "Underage," for instance, is a legal definition that differs from state to state, so there is a grey area created by that range. But a man was recently convicted of having sex with a four-year-old. I think that would fall pretty far outside any grey area. There are groups who would take great offense at the suggestion that blacks are not subhuman or that women are not second-class citizens and that any suggestion otherwise would be an attack on their beliefs. But I think that their beliefs would fall, again, well outside any grey area. NAMBLA---the National Man-Boy Love Association---is devoted to promoting sexual relationships between adults and children...and would surely consider any attack on that belief as being discriminatory. But, again, I think they may fall outside any reasonable grey area, just as would a book that promoted child pornography, rape or genocide, regardless of the fact that there may be people who earnestly support such things.
I think it would be hard to justify the belief that blacks are literally soulless animals because it is "subjective." Especially if, say, a book based on that belief urges the disenfranchisement of blacks, the return of segregation and even the reestablishment of slavery. There are those---I am sure we are all too aware---who already believe these things...but does that make their beliefs worthy of dissemination? I think it is much too easy to say that everyone's belief's are equally valid because they are all subjective. There are tens of thousands of people who believe with all their soul that the earth is flat. They are idiots of course, but their belief really does no one any harm. But someone who advocates discrimination or violence against another race, children, women or another religion...well, that is an entirely different matter. They can do harm---and, in fact, many have.
As I said earlier, Lulu has to tiptoe along a fine line. There is a fundamental and critical difference between refusing to publish a book because it advocates racism or violence and refusing to publish a book because it offends your personal beliefs...just as the bakers did who refused to cater to a same-sex wedding. If Lulu were to refuse to print a book because it promoted sexual abuse, it would be doing the right thing. But if Lulu were to refuse to print a copy of the Koran because the CEO of Lulu was an evangelical Christian, that would be crossing the line...as the bakery did.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 14:50:22 GMT
They raise some very good points. However, this kind of filtering would entail the reading of every single book in every single language. Perhaps the title and cover image are not hateful but the content is. As has been previously noted, there is no consensus on what constitutes "hateful" or "indecent".
You would think saying "It's wrong to force girls under the age of consent [as in not legally old enough to enter into a physical relationship] into an arranged marriage" would be considered acceptable, yet there actually are people who would take offense at that statement due to their belief system. Those people would consider the statement "hateful" and an attack upon their beliefs.
My point is what constitutes "hateful" or against "basic human decency" can be extremely subjective and completely dependent upon an individual reader's mores since there is no universally agreed upon definition of "basic human decency". The end result is a book most reasonable people would agree contains nothing of a hateful or indecent nature could be yanked due to one person's perspective.
Since Lulu Press is reviewing books based on what gets reported, what actually gets taken down and why is anyone's guess.
As per the themes in the Delirium series and, of course, Nineteen Eighty-Four, love might be considered indecent in a hundred years. And, if I recall correctly, The Giver.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2020 14:53:34 GMT
I agree with B&G that it is disturbing to think that Lulu (and similar companies) may filter books based on its own standards of what seems appropriate. To say that they are free to do whatever they like leads one really fast into a quandary: what about the bakery that refuses to provide a cake for a same-sex wedding? Why would that be wrong and Lulu be right in refusing to publish a book? I think there is a fundamental difference between the two...the only problem is that Lulu finds itself balancing on a narrow tightrope. There are some things that would clearly be questionable: Books supporting pedophilia, for instance, or books promulgating racism or antisemitism, or books advocating violence. Both the Southern Poverty Law Center* and the FBI** have pretty clear guidelines as to what constitutes "hate." But it would be easy to slip too far and refuse to publish a book simply because Lulu disagrees with it and not because it advocates, say, rape, child molestation or the eradication of a religion or race. For instance, if Lulu refused to publish a book about Wicca because its CEO is an evangelical Christian, that would put it squarely in the position of the bakery. On the other hand, I think it would be right in refusing to publish a how-to manual on child pornography. The decision of the bakery to refuse service on the basis of a customer's sexual orientation would put it clearly on the FBI's radar as a hate crime...just as an anti-gay book might be refused publication by Lulu. For example, books like "The Negro: What is His Ethnological Status?" and "The Negro a Beast" attempted to prove that blacks were, literally, soulless animals created for no other purpose than to serve whites. Or "The Mongol in Our Midst," that argued that blacks were closely related to gorillas. Or "The New Elements of Race Investigation," which claimed that "the blood particles of a Jew are completely different from those of a Nordic man." Or "Jews Must Live" (subtitled "An Account of the Persecution of the World by Israel on all the Frontiers of Civilization") that contained an appendix that asked "Do the Jews emit a peculiar odor?" (The author said "yes.") I think that Lulu would be perfectly justified in refusing to print and distribute books like these. I think it is both disingenuous and naive to say, "Let the reader decide for themselves what is right and wrong." Books like these and countless others work very hard at sounding plausible and even scientific. They can be---as intended---very convincing, especially to a reader who has no reason to doubt what they say. "Oh, sure!" says the gun dealer who sold a loaded weapon to an angry drunk. "It was entirely up to him what he did with it." ---------------------------------------- *The SPLC defines "hate group" as "an organization that---based on its official statements or principles, the statements of its leaders, or its activities---has beliefs or practices that attack or malign an entire class of people, typically for their immutable characteristics...The organizations on our hate group list vilify others because of their race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation or gender identity." **The FBI defines a "hate crime" "as a committed criminal offense which is motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender’s bias(es) against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity, gender, or gender identity." In fact, the FBI has a very specific list of biases on which hate crimes are committed (and it is a pretty long list, too). Lulu is a printer, or so they have been telling us for years. The reason they were created is for the user to publish what they want. They have no business filtering.
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Post by ronmiller on Jun 8, 2020 14:55:32 GMT
Ron, I basically agree with your points but I need to point out that promotion of certain ideas or acts in a book isn't the same as what a particular reader may think a book is promoting. For that matter, the number of people who actually comprehend legal definitions versus those who think a law says something it doesn't is disconcerting. One book that comes to mind is "Lucifer's Hammer" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, published back in 1977. It is conceivable someone could interpret parts of the text as promoting cannibalism, underage sex, as well as pedophilia, when it doesn't. If that book were published today it doesn't take much stretching of the imagination to see someone wanting it banned due to its purported lack of basic human decency. FBI and SPLC definitions on hate speech can be very useful guidelines but those guidelines aren't universally accepted around the world, and with writers and the audience of same living in varying polities at times with different standards of what constitutes hate speech Lulu Press needs to be very cautious on its tightrope. I think there would be a considerable difference between what might be contained in bits and pieces of a novel---there are huge chunks of "Moby-Dick" that are pretty clearly homosexual---and a book that is overtly devoted to a specific topic. I think, too, some consideration should be given to the intent of a book. For instance, there is a pretty embarrassing caricature of a Jew in Jules Verne's "Off on a Comet," but the book itself is not remotely about antisemitism. The N-word appears throughout "Tom Sawyer" and "To Kill a Mockingbird," which has given a number of people pause for thought in recent years---but neither book is remotely racist. To the contrary, in fact. On the other hand, a book such as "The Turner Diaries" was so explicitly racist and antisemitic that it was labeled the "bible of the racist right" by the Southern Poverty Law Center. The book was influential in shaping white nationalism since the late 1970s as well as the development of the white genocide theory. It has also inspired numerous hate crimes and acts of terrorism, including the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, the 1999 London nail bombings, and the 1984 assassination of Alan Berg. John William King was convicted of dragging African-American James Byrd to his death in Jasper, Texas in 1998. As King shackled Byrd's legs to his truck, he was reported to have said, "We're going to start 'The Turner Diaries' early." The book was originally published by a white nationalist organization, National Alliance which---in its present incarnation as National Vanguard---keeps it in print to this day. National Vanguard is on the SPLC list of hate groups and the Canada Border Services Agency has classified "The Turner Diaries" as hate-propaganda literature that cannot be imported into the country. Among other books National Vanguard has published are "The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews," "Favored Races," and "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century," which attempts to disprove the Holocaust. It might be worth pointing out that National Vanguard publishes these books themselves. As I said before, Lulu is not the only game in town. If someone wants to publish a book promoting hate, sexism and racism there are plenty of ways to do that. No one is stopping them from doing that. You can find "The Turner Diaries" on Amazon with no disclaimers. One Amazon reader made an interesting and valid point in their review of the book: "It was a really tough read though. There were days where I could only read a page or two due to the vile rhetoric, because it made me nauseous and my eyes hurt from rolling...I think it's in the best interests of any person who isn't an anarchist or white supremacist nationalist to read this book and understand what goes on in their thought processes." Which is certainly a valid observation. That being said, most of the reviews were glowing ones posted by people who lauded the book's themes of racism, white supremacy and violence against blacks. So it goes...
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jun 8, 2020 14:59:29 GMT
There is always going to be a grey area between what constitutes "hate" or "indecency" (two entirely different things, I should emphasize, with the latter probably the more subjective of the two) and what is acceptable. But by the same token, I think there are things that are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum. "Underage," for instance, is a legal definition that differs from state to state, so there is a grey area created by that range. But a man was recently convicted of having sex with a four-year-old. I think that would fall pretty far outside any grey area. There are groups who would take great offense at the suggestion that blacks are not subhuman or that women are not second-class citizens and that any suggestion otherwise would be an attack on their beliefs. But I think that their beliefs would fall, again, well outside any grey area. NAMBLA---the National Man-Boy Love Association---is devoted to promoting sexual relationships between adults and children...and would surely consider any attack on that belief as being discriminatory. But, again, I think they may fall outside any reasonable grey area, just as would a book that promoted child pornography, rape or genocide, regardless of the fact that there may be people who earnestly support such things. I think it would be hard to justify the belief that blacks are literally soulless animals because it is "subjective." Especially if, say, a book based on that belief urges the disenfranchisement of blacks, the return of segregation and even the reestablishment of slavery. There are those---I am sure we are all too aware---who already believe these things...but does that make their beliefs worthy of dissemination? I think it is much too easy to say that everyone's belief's are equally valid because they are all subjective. There are tens of thousands of people who believe with all their soul that the earth is flat. They are idiots of course, but their belief really does no one any harm. But someone who advocates discrimination or violence against another race, children, women or another religion...well, that is an entirely different matter. They can do harm---and, in fact, many have. As I said earlier, Lulu has to tiptoe along a fine line. There is a fundamental and critical difference between refusing to publish a book because it advocates racism or violence and refusing to publish a book because it offends your personal beliefs...just as the bakers did who refused to cater to a same-sex wedding. If Lulu were to refuse to print a book because it promoted sexual abuse, it would be doing the right thing. But if Lulu were to refuse to print a copy of the Koran because the CEO of Lulu was an evangelical Christian, that would be crossing the line...as the bakery did. Ron,
Again, I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying. Regarding the offending infantophile, an individual very far from any hint of a grey-zone in both psychological and legal terms.
If Lulu Press refuses to print or takes down a book most reasonable people would find offensive, hateful, or lacking in decency is as you pointed out one thing.
If Lulu Press refuses to print or takes down a book most reasonable people would not find offensive, hateful, or lacking in decency based solely on the subjective opinion of one or two people is as you noted another matter entirely.
My next hypothetical book would likely get taken down or refused based solely on the title: "Mein Kampf: Töpfchentraining für einen Zweijährigen" [English Translation "My Struggle: Potty Training a Two-year-old"].
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Post by ronmiller on Jun 8, 2020 16:54:58 GMT
"My Struggle: Potty Training a Two-year-old" reminds me of Spike Milligan's "Hitler, My Part In His Downfall." Speaking of Hitler, I did a book cover recently for Baen Books. The novel was "Earthdoom!" and one of the plot elements involved was a small English town in which everyone, man, woman and child, was a Hitler clone. Unfortunately, the publisher loathes anything Nazi and refuses to have any sort of reference to Hitler or the Nazis on their book covers... So I had to come up with something different. I think that one guideline for Lulu might be the organizations on the SPLC's list and to refuse to publish anything that comes from them or their members. That would at least cover racism and antisemitism as well as give Lulu a semblance of objectivity. Other things such as pedophilia, pornography, etc. might be a little more subjective but there still could be some standards set.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jun 8, 2020 18:30:13 GMT
Ron, When it comes to "pedophilia" the following definitions might help people with objectivity.
********************************************************************************************* The categories below are considered aberrant when one of the following age ranges is a person's sole sexual interest. Ephebophile 15-18 Hebephile 11-14 Pedophile 6-10 Infantophile 0-5
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Post by benziger on Jun 8, 2020 18:31:57 GMT
"Underage," for instance, is a legal definition that differs from state to state, so there is a grey area created by that range. I completely agree with your previous post, but in this post, you show one of the problems: Lulu giving a free ISBN and as the publisher, should follow North Carolinan's law - the same book published with the author's ISBN should follow the law of the place where the author=publisher is resident. So Lulu's support is not only suposed to speak 155 languages, but also to know several laws of several countries... If e.g. a Swiss publisher publishes through Lulu and the book is printed for European customers in Poland, the UK or the Netherlands, the application of US law would be more than presumptuous.
Or e.g. the National Socialist texts are banned in Germany as hate texts - except for scientific purposes. So I create a few footnotes and write "study edition" on the title page. Is that enough? I believe that the longer this discussion becomes, the less clear the situation and the more questions there are. Although I can see from the written text that so far all participants in the discussion seem to have a similar basic attitude.
What a wasp's nest was stung in there! I mean, even without an announcement, Lulu could refuse or cancel a publishing or printing job if necessary.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jun 8, 2020 19:29:05 GMT
"Underage," for instance, is a legal definition that differs from state to state, so there is a grey area created by that range. I completely agree with your previous post, but in this post, you show one of the problems: Lulu giving a free ISBN and as the publisher, should follow North Carolinan's law - the same book published with the author's ISBN should follow the law of the place where the author=publisher is resident. So Lulu's support is not only suposed to speak 155 languages, but also to know several laws of several countries... If e.g. a Swiss publisher publishes through Lulu and the book is printed for European customers in Poland, the UK or the Netherlands, the application of US law would be more than presumptuous.
Or e.g. the National Socialist texts are banned in Germany as hate texts - except for scientific purposes. So I create a few footnotes and write "study edition" on the title page. Is that enough? I believe that the longer this discussion becomes, the less clear the situation and the more questions there are. Although I can see from the written text that so far all participants in the discussion seem to have a similar basic attitude.
What a wasp's nest was stung in there! I mean, even without an announcement, Lulu could refuse or cancel a publishing or printing job if necessary.
In North Carolina where Lulu Press is based age restricted relationships where the "underage" can consent are 13 to 15, and unrestricted starts at age 16. The age of majority in North Carolina is 18.
In Delaware where Lulu Press is incorporated the age restricted relationships are 16 and 17, with unrestricted beginning at age 18.
A hornet's nest in the U.S. not to mention global markets.
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