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Post by ronmiller on Jul 10, 2020 12:13:38 GMT
Here is a good test I often recommend be applied to book covers: Convert the cover to gray scale. This will highlight any problems with color and value contrast. I was commenting on a cover posted this morning in the Scribophile Cover Critique forum and applied the test to it with this result... One thing that is often hard to remember is that while red is a very saturated color it is also very low in value...that is, on a gray scale of 1-10 with white at 10, it falls into the lower numbers. So if red is placed against any color with an equivalent value, it tends to not pop out...worse, it will all but disappear in B&W. This applies to any two colors of similar value, such as the blue background and red type in this cover. A friend of mine---a very, very experienced science fiction illustrator---once had to do a scene depicting a battle in outer space. He painted dozens of red laser beams flashing between the spaceships...forgetting that the art would be reproduced in B&W. And when it came out in print, all of those bright red lines vanished into the black background. Here is another recent Cover Critique example where I applied the same test... You can see where there is very little value contrast: no black blacks or white whites. Instead, grays that are all too close to the same mid-value range. (One negative result is that the author credit is very difficult to read in either version.) So...it's not a bad idea to convert any cover into gray scale as a final test. Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 13:47:04 GMT
Here is a good test I often recommend be applied to book covers: Convert the cover to gray scale. This will highlight any problems with color and value contrast. I was commenting on a cover posted this morning in the Scribophile Cover Critique forum and applied the test to it with this result... View AttachmentOne thing that is often hard to remember is that while red is a very saturated color it is also very low in value...that is, on a gray scale of 1-10 with white at 10, it falls into the lower numbers. So if red is placed against any color with an equivalent value, it tends to not pop out...worse, it will all but disappear in B&W. This applies to any two colors of similar value, such as the blue background and red type in this cover. A friend of mine---a very, very experienced science fiction illustrator---once had to do a scene depicting a battle in outer space. He painted dozens of red laser beams flashing between the spaceships...forgetting that the art would be reproduced in B&W. And when it came out in print, all of those bright red lines vanished into the black background. Here is another recent Cover Critique example where I applied the same test... View Attachment You can see where there is very little value contrast: no black blacks or white whites. Instead, grays that are all too close to the same mid-value range. (One negative result is that the author credit is very difficult to read in either version.) So...it's not a bad idea to convert any cover into gray scale as a final test. That is an incredible lesson. Something i never thought of. What is the down side of having fonts and background in mid-value range if the cover is to be printed in colour? To me the first one is effective, perfect even. The others seem too diluted, not striking enough. And secondly, what would you have done differently if you could change the blue cover?
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Post by ronmiller on Jul 10, 2020 14:19:20 GMT
The Next Stop Love cover is indeed really nice (which I was careful to make sure I told the author)...it really only needs some fairly simple fine-tuning. This is what I posted in reply to the author on the Cover Critique site:
The figures and type are overwhelmed by the blue background, in which they appear to be floating. Everything could be made a little larger. "A Novel" and your name absolutely need to be made larger: they are unreadable at thumbnail size and difficult at any other size. There needs to be a little more value contrast between LOVE and the background. You can see what I mean when the cover is converted to B&W, which emphasizes these problems.
In short, increasing the contrast between the colors both in value and chroma (intensity) would make the cover pop out a lot more. At the moment, the overall sameness in value makes the cover seem weak.
And while a cover may be printed in color, the first time a potential reader may see it will probably be in thumbnail form, where immediacy and readability are very important. Then, too, there is always a possibility that a cover might appear in B&W, say, for instance, in a newspaper review or ad.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 23:20:46 GMT
The Next Stop Love cover is indeed really nice (which I was careful to make sure I told the author)...it really only needs some fairly simple fine-tuning. This is what I posted in reply to the author on the Cover Critique site: The figures and type are overwhelmed by the blue background, in which they appear to be floating. Everything could be made a little larger. "A Novel" and your name absolutely need to be made larger: they are unreadable at thumbnail size and difficult at any other size. There needs to be a little more value contrast between LOVE and the background. You can see what I mean when the cover is converted to B&W, which emphasizes these problems.In short, increasing the contrast between the colors both in value and chroma (intensity) would make the cover pop out a lot more. At the moment, the overall sameness in value makes the cover seem weak. And while a cover may be printed in color, the first time a potential reader may see it will probably be in thumbnail form, where immediacy and readability are very important. Then, too, there is always a possibility that a cover might appear in B&W, say, for instance, in a newspaper review or ad. Ok, that's pretty brilliant. All the suggestions. I will use them in future. Thank you.
Only after you talked about the author name did I even see it. It was hardly visible. It would be nice to see the final result when the designer improves it.
Just a little trivia which brought me pleasure and a small thrill as I was reading it: the Chroma is Greek for Colour. How interesting that the meaning of words changes when transferred to another language.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 23:23:14 GMT
The Next Stop Love cover is indeed really nice (which I was careful to make sure I told the author)...it really only needs some fairly simple fine-tuning. This is what I posted in reply to the author on the Cover Critique site: The figures and type are overwhelmed by the blue background, in which they appear to be floating. Everything could be made a little larger. "A Novel" and your name absolutely need to be made larger: they are unreadable at thumbnail size and difficult at any other size. There needs to be a little more value contrast between LOVE and the background. You can see what I mean when the cover is converted to B&W, which emphasizes these problems.In short, increasing the contrast between the colors both in value and chroma (intensity) would make the cover pop out a lot more. At the moment, the overall sameness in value makes the cover seem weak. And while a cover may be printed in color, the first time a potential reader may see it will probably be in thumbnail form, where immediacy and readability are very important. Then, too, there is always a possibility that a cover might appear in B&W, say, for instance, in a newspaper review or ad. I scrolled up and looked at the cover again on my way out, and another question arose in my mind. How would you make the figures bigger? They are really close to the edge and barely fit it seems to me. Would you recommend bleeding them off the page?
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Post by ronmiller on Jul 11, 2020 11:51:58 GMT
Perhaps they couldn't be made larger. Part of the problem might be solved by your suggestion of tying them together with a shadow or line. This would make them more of a unit than two separate visual elements. They may also be looking smaller than they really are because the blue is so overwhelming. If that were toned down a little there might be a little more emphasis on the figures. And, of course, making "A Novel" and the author's name actually visible would occupy some of that space as well.
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Post by maggieguest on Jul 11, 2020 16:39:16 GMT
Perhaps they couldn't be made larger. Part of the problem might be solved by your suggestion of tying them together with a shadow or line. This would make them more of a unit than two separate visual elements. They may also be looking smaller than they really are because the blue is so overwhelming. If that were toned down a little there might be a little more emphasis on the figures. And, of course, making "A Novel" and the author's name actually visible would occupy some of that space as well. Ok, that would be a good idea; their shadow, bigger, behind them. Brilliant. Maybe some significant detail in the shadow. Hmm.
Thank you, Ron. Your lessons I keep forever.
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Post by ronmiller on Jul 11, 2020 17:02:12 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2020 11:03:11 GMT
I looked at it yesterday using a smaller device and hardly noticed the changes. Now I see she added shadow around the feet, a novel is larger. It has changed the overall effect even if those changes are small.
I agree; I think the shadow should be larger. And the author name? It was hardly visible in black and white.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Jul 14, 2020 16:44:24 GMT
Sorry, but if a cover is to be printed in colour, what does it matter what it looks like in greyscale? Red, as per one example, certainly stands out far more than a shade of grey against grey. Stands to reason. If one does want it in greyscale, then create it in greyscale, then one can see exactly what shades to use.
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Post by ronmiller on Jul 14, 2020 17:34:47 GMT
Sorry, but if a cover is to be printed in colour, what does it matter what it looks like in greyscale? Red, as per one example, certainly stands out far more than a shade of grey against grey. Stands to reason. If one does want it in greyscale, then create it in greyscale, then one can see exactly what shades to use. It does matter. Looking at a cover in gray scale gives one a good idea about value contrasts in addition to contrasts in hue and chroma. Why sacrifice any of the impact your cover might have by ignoring contrast in value? Applying this test is a good way to emphasize the difference. If a cover in gray scale looks too much like the same grey overall, than it is missing out on some of the impact it might have had. I think we have all seen covers where someone has put a dark red title against a black or dark gray background and have warned them how difficult it is to read. Having looked at the cover first in gray scale would have made the problem immediately pop out. Red will stand out against gray, as you say, but how much so depends a lot on the gray itself. The closer in value the gray is to the value of the red, the less contrast you will have. In any case, it's been a test used for decades---even long before digital art and photography---in much the same way that many artists and designers will turn an image upside down or look at it in a mirror in order to double-check the effectiveness of a design or layout.
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Post by BlueAndGold on Jul 15, 2020 1:18:50 GMT
It may not be a big issue, but perhaps paying attention to the grayscale image can also eliminate problems for those who are colorblind in various wavelengths. There are many people who can't tell the difference between blue and green or even green and red. I understand there are quite a few folks with that affliction.
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Post by ronmiller on Jul 15, 2020 12:40:37 GMT
It may not be a big issue, but perhaps paying attention to the grayscale image can also eliminate problems for those who are colorblind in various wavelengths. There are many people who can't tell the difference between blue and green or even green and red. I understand there are quite a few folks with that affliction. Not a bad point! There is another practical reason that I failed to mention and that is that a book cover often accompanies reviews in print media, such as newspapers, where it may be reproduced in B&W.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Jul 16, 2020 0:20:06 GMT
I would agree that if the intention is to upload pages that carry colour, but have the book printed in greyscale (often once the cost of colour has been discovered!) it's a good idea to look at what the pages actually will look like in greyscale before uploading. But I cannot see the point in looking at a coloured image in greyscale, that will be printed in colour. What you see in colour should be what you get. It may have been common practice to test a colour image in greyscale, before newspapers were printed in colour, because, well, it would be printed in greyscale, or even B & W using tiny carefully placed dots (Halftone?) Surely, for example, if one uses a pink font on red, it should be readily 'noticeable' if it is clear in colour without changing to greyscale?
Do they still print newspapers in B & W? I have not seen any. Most of the major ones are also on line, anyway.
Colour-blindness is of course a problem. (I once had a colourblind electrician working for me. Remarkably he went off shades of grey!) But unless a book is specifically aimed at them (and the level of colour-blindness varies greatly) one cannot create a cover to, well, cover every particular need. One may as well try to create a cover that can be read by bees.
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Post by ronmiller on Jul 16, 2020 12:21:54 GMT
I would agree that if the intention is to upload pages that carry colour, but have the book printed in greyscale (often once the cost of colour has been discovered!) it's a good idea to look at what the pages actually will look like in greyscale before uploading. But I cannot see the point in looking at a coloured image in greyscale, that will be printed in colour. What you see in colour should be what you get. It may have been common practice to test a colour image in greyscale, before newspapers were printed in colour, because, well, it would be printed in greyscale, or even B & W using tiny carefully placed dots (Halftone?) Surely, for example, if one uses a pink font on red, it should be readily 'noticeable' if it is clear in colour without changing to greyscale? Do they still print newspapers in B & W? I have not seen any. Most of the major ones are also on line, anyway. Colour-blindness is of course a problem. (I once had a colourblind electrician working for me. Remarkably he went off shades of grey!) But unless a book is specifically aimed at them (and the level of colour-blindness varies greatly) one cannot create a cover to, well, cover every particular need. One may as well try to create a cover that can be read by bees. Yes, "tiny carefully placed dots" is halftone. Although I will probably have to repeat this forty-seven times, the test is not to see how well your art would look if it were to be printed in B&W but to judge the contrasts in value. It is among the many tests designers have used for decades to judge the effectiveness of a piece of art. One of these, as I mentioned, was to look at an artwork upside down or in a mirror to check the design. As you say, what you see in color is what you will get in color...but is it as effective as it might be? A cover needs to take advantage of contrast in color and chroma, which are easy to see, but it also needs to take advantage of contrast in value as well. Viewing the image in gray scale makes any problems along those lines clearly pop out.
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