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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 11:21:59 GMT
"but I've met more than a few who needed some remedial instruction in civility."
SphinxCameron, I was talking of the old days in the UK. The British were known for their polite ways and were usually not an ill-mannered group of citizens. I'm afraid it's changed and some Brits nowadays can be disrepectful and downright insolent.
PS Kevin belonged to the old school along with the rest of us older inhabitants of the uk.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jan 13, 2020 11:47:41 GMT
"but I've met more than a few who needed some remedial instruction in civility."
SphinxCameron, I was talking of the old days in the UK. The British were known for their polite ways and were usually not an ill-mannered group of citizens. I'm afraid it's changed and some Brits nowadays can be disrepectful and downright insolent.
PS Kevin belonged to the old school along with the rest of us older inhabitants of the uk. Larika,
I was talking of old-school English as well. True, I've met some nice English, but I've met those who left a lot to be desired in terms of civility.
An example of nice: an elderly English war-bride, the widow of a WWII US serviceman dropped off a small baby quilt while my spouse was recuperating from delivering our first child. The elderly widow and her friends hand-stitched those quilts as a symbol of their appreciation for the service of later generations of personnel. We still have that quilt somewhere and will pass it on to that child when she's older.
An example of civility lacking: an Englishman after a few too many pints hoisted started denigrating the Irish in a small South Carolina restaurant. After hearing me state that the person I was having dinner with as well as I had Irish ancestors he stated "The only two good things to come out of Ireland are the women and the whiskey, because they both go down easy."
Both individuals could be termed old-school, both had very different approaches.
I believe we have differing perspectives based on very different experiences.
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Post by BlueAndGold on Jan 13, 2020 12:56:23 GMT
I've you'd like a good row, Sphinx, join an Aussie debate forum.  |
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jan 13, 2020 13:47:56 GMT
I've you'd like a good row, Sphinx, join an Aussie debate forum. To be honest I've no desire for a good row, especially since I have distant maternal and paternal kin Down Under.
I'll stick to projects like the Coastal I managed to get to sprout and survive the past year.
A lot less aggravation with a better prospect of accomplishing something worthwhile.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 14:26:30 GMT
An example of civility lacking: an Englishman after a few too many pints hoisted started denigrating the Irish in a small South Carolina restaurant. After hearing me state that the person I was having dinner with as well as I had Irish ancestors he stated "The only two good things to come out of Ireland are the women and the whiskey, because they both go down easy."
SphinxCameron I'm afraid all courtesy is "off the table" when it comes to drunks, old school or youngster. I'm afraid the British love their drink!!! Also, I'm sorry to say that the Irish people will often be denigrated and become targets when someone is "under the influence."
When my American husband and I arrived in England years ago, (We got married in Paris where we were both teaching) he remarked that in his opinion much of the courtesy he observed was a cover-up for hypocracy. He'd say, "Why don't they just say what they mean, instead of all this false politeness?" However at the time, British people were polite (unless they were drunk!) and it made for an easier life on this small island.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jan 13, 2020 14:45:41 GMT
Larika,
I try to deal with others based on my experience with them individually. I have also been around enough to know that a drunk person's words are often a sober person's thoughts, as over-indulgence often tends to kill innate caution as well as inhibition.
Perhaps you should look up the heraldic device I'm using as my avatar. It's the old version that predates the House of Norman declaring war on that part of my ancestry. If you research that family, you'll better understand my perspective. Trust me, if my oldest brother and I were horrified as adults to learn what had been done to so many of our ancestral lines [for centuries by the English] I doubt you'll be any happier.
And no, I don't have a personal animus against you, events of the past few years have left me fairly acerbic and less patient than I used to be. Hence my dealing more with propagating trees and other plants, less chance of me causing harm to those who don't deserve it.
In case Lomas should be reading this. Yes, I'm entitled to use the heraldic device because I'm of the bloodline and it isn't English.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 14:49:36 GMT
I've you'd like a good row, Sphinx, join an Aussie debate forum.
I'm afraid my husband and my Australian brother-in-law just couldn't get along BlueAndGold. Talk about arguments. My sister and I would just leave them to it!
SphinxCameron I'm a very polite person (not hypocritical I might add!) and have no problem with the Irish (My daughter's partner is Irish and is always talking about the awful things the British did to the Irish. By the way he and my American husband get aong very well)) Unfortunately there is still a strong anti-Irish feeling in this country, particularly after the many bombings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles_and_peace_process) perpetuated by the Irish. Thankfully that has died down but some people will never forgive.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jan 13, 2020 14:58:05 GMT
The last person who tried to start an argument with me did so in the dark and was wise enough to go sleep it off after I withdrew up my driveway.
I saw moonlight glinting off the knife in his hand but he didn't see the battleax I held at my side.
I prefer to stay out of arguments, less mess to clean up and fewer explanations afterward.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2020 11:22:40 GMT
Why oh why do discussions turn into arguments? Things may start out civilly but because of closed minds, a discussion can turn into an argument. I always say "Keep an open mind". If things get ugly with close-minded people, I cut that person out of my life. We will never be able to have discussions and maybe even civilly agree to differ without coming to verbal blows. Discussions=yes, arguments= no!
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Feb 16, 2020 13:22:57 GMT
Why oh why do discussions turn into arguments? Things may start out civilly but because of closed minds, a discussion can turn into an argument. I always say "Keep an open mind". If things get ugly with close-minded people, I cut that person out of my life. We will never be able to have discussions and maybe even civilly agree to differ without coming to verbal blows. Discussions=yes, arguments= no! Larika,
The reasons discussions turn into arguments are as varied as the people having same. It isn't as much closed-minds at times, as it is people seeking a dominant position or realizing they might have been wrong and so on. In other words it's rarely as simple as someone simply being close-minded. Early learning, life experience, society lived in [past and current], financial situation, all can and often do play a part.
One example is when I was young I was taught not to seek out a fight, but if someone kept coming to have one it was time to end it as quickly as possible. The reasoning was the faster it ends the less damage there is on everyone involved. You'd be surprised how many people take that original avoidance of a fight as weakness, and how shocked they are when finally faced with someone remorseless and implacable.
Discusssions-turned-arguments are much the same, you often have people misjudge who they're dealing with and they're rarely happy with the end-result. Perhaps society would be better served if children were taught to reason through their actions beforehand while also being taught it's not about being a winner all the time; sometimes nobody wins. Often the best outcome is the one where everyone learns without anyone getting their feelings hurt.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2020 16:00:31 GMT
Yes, you're probably right Sphinx-Cameron, nothing is just black or white, but one of the reasons that discussions descend into arguments is closemindedness. It's so frustrating!
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Feb 16, 2020 16:26:49 GMT
Yes, you're probably right Sphinx-Cameron, nothing is just black or white, but one of the reasons that discussions descend into arguments is closemindedness. It's so frustrating! Larika,
Consider the adult who from early childhood to adulthood has been taught the world is supposed to be a certain way, and anyone or anything different is suspect. If that person never learned to at least listen to differing concepts or ideas then any discussion diverging from what they 'know is true' will be seen as an attack on the foundations of their reality, hence the ensuing arguments.
Behind someone being close-minded is often a flawed-paradigm, one that seeks overly-simplistic answers or solutions to often highly-complex issues / problems. As well, many people are afraid of change even though change is one of the few constants in life.
Most people are capable of changing themselves to become better people, yet many won't because it involves some serious self-examination of actions, motivations, and long-held beliefs and it's usually far easier to press ahead than admit perhaps some of the truths they've always held dear weren't as universally true as they thought or were taught.
Have I ever been wrong? I certainly have, many times. Have I ever abandoned an opinion I once held? Indeed I have. I've also had to adapt to a variety of local cultures, venues, and belief systems through the decades.
One solution to close-mindedness is exposing children to differing ideas, peoples, and ways of doing things, as it's the insular nature of many communities where anyone and anything different is suspect driving matters.
Rather than be frustrated, accept what you can't change while changing what you can. Children still learn valuable life lessons from books...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 4:37:55 GMT
Larika,
Consider the adult who from early childhood to adulthood has been taught the world is supposed to be a certain way, and anyone or anything different is suspect. If that person never learned to at least listen to differing concepts or ideas then any discussion diverging from what they 'know is true' will be seen as an attack on the foundations of their reality, hence the ensuing arguments.
Behind someone being close-minded is often a flawed-paradigm, one that seeks overly-simplistic answers or solutions to often highly-complex issues / problems. As well, many people are afraid of change even though change is one of the few constants in life.
Most people are capable of changing themselves to become better people, yet many won't because it involves some serious self-examination of actions, motivations, and long-held beliefs and it's usually far easier to press ahead than admit perhaps some of the truths they've always held dear weren't as universally true as they thought or were taught.
Have I ever been wrong? I certainly have, many times. Have I ever abandoned an opinion I once held? Indeed I have. I've also had to adapt to a variety of local cultures, venues, and belief systems through the decades.
One solution to close-mindedness is exposing children to differing ideas, peoples, and ways of doing things, as it's the insular nature of many communities where anyone and anything different is suspect driving matters.
Rather than be frustrated, accept what you can't change while changing what you can. Children still learn valuable life lessons from books...
Very well expressed Sphinx-Cameron you have a real gift for words. Thank you
m
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Feb 17, 2020 20:37:48 GMT
Larika,
A while back I took my daughters to the local dollar store to get some schtuff they could play with [and per usual eventually tear up] for a price that wouldn't raise my hackles. Just inside the door was a woman around my age who started remarking about how cute Their Graces were before remarking; "You're such a good Grandpa to be bringing them here." I replied: "While I am a grandfather, they're my daughters." Then the woman wanted to know if my 'daughter' was at work. After a couple more interchanges I finally had to break it down in simple terms: "These are my children, as in the two of them are my female offspring -- I am their father." Then the woman got upset because per her paradigm, I was too old to be the father of young children, and in her opinion there must have been something nefarious going on. Sometimes the simplest things can cause people to get argumentative, especially when those apparently simple things contradict what some people see as basic reality and 'the way things are and should always be'.
With any luck I get to get out and work with the chainsaw tomorrow, it's nice to do something I'm really good at.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2020 20:43:31 GMT
Larika,
A while back I took my daughters to the local dollar store to get some schtuff they could play with [and per usual eventually tear up] for a price that wouldn't raise my hackles. Just inside the door was a woman around my age who started remarking about how cute Their Graces were before remarking; "You're such a good Grandpa to be bringing them here." I replied: "While I am a grandfather, they're my daughters." Then the woman wanted to know if my 'daughter' was at work. After a couple more interchanges I finally had to break it down in simple terms: "These are my children, as in the two of them are my female offspring -- I am their father." Then the woman got upset because per her paradigm, I was too old to be the father of young children, and in her opinion there must have been something nefarious going on. Sometimes the simplest things can cause people to get argumentative, especially when those apparently simple things contradict what some people see as basic reality and 'the way things are and should always be'.
With any luck I get to get out and work with the chainsaw tomorrow, it's nice to do something I'm really good at.
Cameron, I love that Shakira and Jennifer Lopez have younger husbands and I love that you have young children. Love breaking old rules and making up new ones. |
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