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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2022 6:20:37 GMT
Historians have ways of determining historicity and age. Particular criteria and perhaps physical tests. Kevin, I appreciate the responses, but they're only about 70% accurate. Jesus died, He was placed in a tomb. Then He was resurrected. Therefore He had a tomb. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2022 6:22:28 GMT
Historians have ways of determining historicity and age. Particular criteria and perhaps physical tests. I would love a time machine to visit that time. Only that time. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2022 6:29:25 GMT
Maggie wrote: "A completely uneducated man". I don't think he was uneducated because people call him "master". I vaguely remember that in a Gospel Jesus Christ says the ways of the Lord are impenetrable. It is adapted from a passage from a Greek tragedy - perhaps he knew some lines from this tragedy. The Jews were so deeply hellenized after Alexander the Great's conquest in 323 BC that Jewish youths who wanted to take part to stadium activities - that required full nakedness - had a more or less successful reconstruction of their foreskin. Seeing that, the religious Jewish leaders devised another form of circumcision without any skin left that makes it impossible to reconstitute the foreskin even partially. Another proof that the Jews also spoke Greek is the Septant /Septuaginta Bible that dates back to 230BC, and is the translation of the Old Testament into demotic Greek by Jewish scholars for Ptolemy II. Those scholars were the tip of the iceberg. Three centuries after Alexander the Great, a majority of Jews in Judea / Israel and in Egypt spoke Greek as the international language. Finally, when discussing the beginning of the Christian era, it is important to remember that the original texts of the New Testament are written in Greek. If you don't keep these linguistic data in mind, you are bound to visualize things through warped filters. [br It's fascinating. I just Googled literacy of Jesus and the Apostles. Contrary views. Your response has more substance. |
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Post by potet on Feb 3, 2022 10:55:08 GMT
JustKevin wrote:"The renovation of Jesus's tomb. But it puzzled me. For a start, was he not placed in a cave? That he walked out of?"
I agree with you. "Tomb" is a misnomer; it was a morgue in which dead bodies were stored during the Sabbath - 24 hours during which Jews were forbidden by their religion to do any sort of work - pending Sunday when works resumed, and corpses could be buried in a cemetery.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2022 12:59:06 GMT
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Post by And still Kevin 2024 on Feb 3, 2022 13:43:33 GMT
History is stuff written down. And there is little from that time or area, apart from possible taxation records by Romans, and what is in the Bible, written 100s of years later. It's archelogy that attempts to discover things when there's few or no written records, usually literally by digging! I watched a fascinating documentary the other day. The renovation of Jesus's tomb. But it puzzled me. For a start, was he not placed in a cave? That he walked out of? This place was pretty much a hole in the ground (with a later built building over it) with layers of virtual stone manhole covers over it, placed at many times. But what puzzled me most was, how can it be his tomb if he resurrected? Oh for a time machine. Kevin, I appreciate the responses, but they're only about 70% accurate. Jesus died, He was placed in a tomb. Then He was resurrected. Therefore He had a tomb. They could be 100% inaccurate. Just like a lot of modern things found on the internet (False News). The stories I recall, and the many makings of the story in to films etc, it was a cave or man made tomb (belonging to some relation) he walked out of, not a hole in the ground he had to crawl up out of. This is said to be his www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/jesus-christ-tomb-burial-church-holy-sepulchreOne problem is that there have always been religious tourists bringing great wealth to anywhere that claimed to have an artefact or whatever. European churches are full of them of dubious origin. The Turin Shroud is a good example, but recently dated to the time of Da Vinci and apparently made by him using some form of photographic reproduction. Another example is a tree supposed to have been planted on Glastonbury Tor by a young Jesus (the nearby church also claim to have the grave of King Arthur). Another example, perhaps, is the Ark of the Covenant, said to be kept in Ethiopia, but will they let any one see it? No. |
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Post by And still Kevin 2024 on Feb 3, 2022 13:49:40 GMT
History is stuff written down. And there is little from that time or area, apart from possible taxation records by Romans, and what is in the Bible, written 100s of years later. It's archelogy that attempts to discover things when there's few or no written records, usually literally by digging! I watched a fascinating documentary the other day. The renovation of Jesus's tomb. But it puzzled me. For a start, was he not placed in a cave? That he walked out of? This place was pretty much a hole in the ground (with a later built building over it) with layers of virtual stone manhole covers over it, placed at many times. But what puzzled me most was, how can it be his tomb if he resurrected? Oh for a time machine. I would love a time machine to visit that time. Only that time. There's an Alternate History short story about a chap who invented a time machine, and used it to go back to Jesus's time and place. He wanted to meet him of course. But no one had heard of him or his preaching or miracles. The chap was there for a year asking around and relating the story of Jesus and his teachings, basically spreading what eventually became the legend. In the end the Romans got fed up of him, and crucified him. His body vanished from the tomb, because his time machine was set to return him after a year. Dead or alive. It's one of those time travel paradoxes. |
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Post by And still Kevin 2024 on Feb 3, 2022 13:51:10 GMT
JustKevin wrote:"The renovation of Jesus's tomb. But it puzzled me. For a start, was he not placed in a cave? That he walked out of?" I agree with you. "Tomb" is a misnomer; it was a morgue in which dead bodies were stored during the Sabbath - 24 hours during which Jews were forbidden by their religion to do any sort of work - pending Sunday when works resumed, and corpses could be buried in a cemetery. |
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Post by BlueAndGold on Feb 3, 2022 14:55:34 GMT
Flavius Josephus
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Feb 3, 2022 16:43:40 GMT
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Post by potet on Feb 3, 2022 21:29:46 GMT
Maggie wrote: "I don't think it was a morgue. Joseph of Arimathea gave up his own tomb, never before used, for Jesus. The word they use everywhere for these "caves" is "tomb."
This Joseph of Arimathea was a Jewish VIP. Jews were not buried in caves, but placed in underground tombs their enshrouded bodies in contact with the earth ... so much so that holes are bored in the coffins of modern Jews in countries (like France) where a coffin is required.
Whatever the initial purpose of Joseph's cave, it was used as a morgue to keep the corpse of Jesus Christ pending his burial. The Roman soldiers had been ordered to finish off the dying men on the crosses because the Sabbath would begin Friday evening after sunset, and no burial could take place until Saturday evening after sunset.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2022 8:57:39 GMT
Maggie wrote: "I don't think it was a morgue. Joseph of Arimathea gave up his own tomb, never before used, for Jesus. The word they use everywhere for these "caves" is "tomb." This Joseph of Arimathea was a Jewish VIP. Jews were not buried in caves, but placed in underground tombs their enshrouded bodies in contact with the earth ... so much so that holes are bored in the coffins of modern Jews in countries (like France) where a coffin is required. Whatever the initial purpose of Joseph's cave, it was used as a morgue to keep the corpse of Jesus Christ pending his burial. The Roman soldiers had been ordered to finish off the dying men on the crosses because the Sabbath would begin Friday evening after sunset, and no burial could take place until Saturday evening after sunset. Perhaps I'm wrong then. I had understood that the Romans were going to dump his body with the other "criminals" in a heap of dead at Golgotha. Joseph of Arimathea, being a secret believer, could not allow this so he begged Pilate for the body. They took the body and placed it in a tomb, no dirt touching the body. My sources are The King James Bible, movies, books about the bible, apologists. Every single thing I've been exposed to agrees on this. It does not matter what I think. Anyone can look it up and find the exact verses. I could be misremembering. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2022 9:01:44 GMT
Was Flavius Josephus not a historian who wrote about Jesus? I recall William Lane Craig talking about him as one nonbiased proof out of eleven of the historical existence of a man who fits Jesus' description. He might have even mentioned him by name. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2022 9:08:44 GMT
I would love a time machine to visit that time. Only that time. There's an Alternate History short story about a chap who invented a time machine, and used it to go back to Jesus's time and place. He wanted to meet him of course. But no one had heard of him or his preaching or miracles. The chap was there for a year asking around and relating the story of Jesus and his teachings, basically spreading what eventually became the legend. In the end the Romans got fed up of him, and crucified him. His body vanished from the tomb, because his time machine was set to return him after a year. Dead or alive. It's one of those time travel paradoxes.There are many perverse and doubt-casting, mocking stories about Jesus. And yet, people still pray to Him every day. Even atheists say Jesus! at least three times a day. And they spend every waking moment thinking about how to disprove Him. They think and talk about Jesus more than I do. |
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Post by potet on Feb 4, 2022 10:53:27 GMT
Maggie wrote: "Perhaps I'm wrong then. I had understood that the Romans were going to dump his body with the other "criminals" in a heap of dead at Golgotha. Joseph of Arimathea, being a secret believer, could not allow this so he begged Pilate for the body. They took the body and placed it in a tomb, no dirt touching the body.
My sources are The King James Bible, movies, books about the bible, apologists. Every single thing I've been exposed to agrees on this.
It does not matter what I think. Anyone can look it up and find the exact verses. I could be misremembering."
No, you are right. Only calling "tomb" the cave used as a morgue to keep the corpse of Jesus-Christ pending the end of the Sabbath is misleading. It has been probably done on purpose. For the faithful, what is now shown in Jerusalem to pilgrims is the slab on which Jesus' body was laid.
Whether one believes in the existence of Jesus-Christ or whether they think it's a piece of mythology is irrelevant to the issue. What matters is how far the stories / the reports fit into the Jewish beliefs and customs of that time in the Near-East. If there are puzzling discrepancies, they probably come from a secondary source and / or its translation.
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