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Post by And still Kevin 2024 on Mar 10, 2020 14:13:53 GMT
"Certainly, this occurs all the time...but such books are, of course, a very small number among the total published."
Hardly. Then again they perhaps take the big share of total sales.
In fact, "celebrity" books are often published simply because the publisher knows they will sell well."
Quite so, they are not in business to take risks.
But then, those are the books that enable a publisher to be able to afford to take chances on first-time authors."
No doubt, but also no doubt, the amount paid up front to already famous people is possibly out of the budget of many publishers.
BTW. I mentioned Romance fiction in one of my replies. I just looked on Amazon Books with no search criteria, and it's showing me Romance fiction!
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Post by ronmiller on Mar 10, 2020 15:02:03 GMT
I wrote: "A trusted brand once put horse meat into its products, therefore I may as well get my sausage from that guy who just knocked at my door, selling meat out of the trunk of his car." In the US, nearly ten percent of deaths can be attributed to medical error. Getting medical advice from your grocer about that lump has pretty much a 100% risk of mortality. You replied: "Huh? Findus don't sell door to door..." Who in the world was talking about Findus and whether or not they deliver? I was talking about some stranger pulling up to your house and wanting to sell you sausage out of the trunk of their car. What I was doing, just to make myself as clear as possible, was equating your dismissal of name brands with buying products from utterly unknown sources since, apparently, you believe there is no difference. To emphasize this point, I also equated it with getting medical advice from your grocer. You really need to keep up with the flow of conversation, Ron, from start to finish, and not just recall the last reply. No, you insist that you can trust well-known brands, and professionals in their fields, when it's simply not always true. * "Gee, Mr. Smith, is this a wart or a melanoma?" "Aw, it's just a wart, son. I'd recommend taking a small piece of raw meat, rubbing the wart with it and then burying the meat under a full moon. As the meat decays, the wart will slowly disappear." "Thanks, Mr. Smith! I really feel relieved!" Now you are just being silly. Do bother to read my examples of why what you say in regard to * is not always true. I have absolutely no problem with you taking all of your medical concerns to your local florist, plumber or used car salesman.
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Post by ronmiller on Mar 10, 2020 15:05:18 GMT
You did real good until that last line! Publishers insist on no such things. They may insist on a query letter first---probably the majority do---but that is not the same as a letter of introduction It's pretty much the same thing. "Hello, I am (fill in here) and I have this story about (fill in here) you may be interested in …"I am not at all sure how a publisher asking for a query letter is "pretty much the same thing" as a publisher "insisting" on a letter of introduction. The former is SOP, the other is almost unheard of. You sample, by the way, is a very good way to start off a query letter!
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Post by ronmiller on Mar 10, 2020 15:17:25 GMT
In one way that's a bit like a poll a statistics gathering company executed many many decades ago. By a telecoms company, they were asked to find out what people thought about phones (landlines, when that's all there was.) The poll was eventually judged as worthless because they only asked people, by ringing them. Think about it … I looked in to the backgrounds of many of the first time novelists, and the keyword there is Novelist, because many of them had been published by other means, even 'only' as journalists, or perhaps short story writers for periodicals, etc. and often had a fan base (or Followers as they are called nowadays). At the very least they were trained writers. Even trained in creative writing. Even with Phds in it. In a nutshell, from their very first approach letter to a publisher onwards, they were impressive writers. Once a large sample was sent, it was obvious not a lot of expensive time had to be spent making it readable, never-mind publishable. Then again, they may already have been known to a publisher. Even from just a blog. Indeed. What you say is often the case. Very rare is the author who sits down at keyboard to write for the very first time in their entire lives. However, there is a difference between being an experienced writer and being an impressive one. Define "impressive", many published works simply are not. A writer can be experienced simply by producing a large body of work. An impressive writer would be one who would write something memorable regardless of quantity. To take one example, think of the yeoman authors in the days of the pulps who would crank out stories and novels literally by the hundreds, all of which may have been entertaining but forgetable. They were certainly experienced. But an author such as, say, Margaret Mitchell or Harper Lee may write something lasting and meaningful in a very small body of work. That's how I would define "experienced" vs "memorable." On the other hand, Dan Brown is an experienced, and very successful, writer whose work is at the pulp level and eminently disposable. This isn't to say, of course, that an experienced writer cannot also be a memorable one. There are certainly many writers with large body of important work. But the only point I wanted to make was that "experienced" and "memorable" are not synonymous.That being said, opening a query letter with "I am an experienced author..." along with a few examples of where this took place (or appending a list of publications) does indeed cut some ice. Quite so, and often nowadays they can point to pages on the net as examples. Here are just a few apparently popular ones www.ebizmba.com/articles/blogs not that I read any. Some more, just in the UK >> blog.feedspot.com/uk_blogs/True so far as it goes, but publishers in my experience tend to take online references a little less seriously than print references, unless one is writing for a vetted online publication such as, for instance, Forbes or Huffington Post. Pointing to one's own blog is often taken with a grain of salt. For one thing, it is like pointing to your self-published book as an example of your experience as a writer.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Mar 10, 2020 15:35:22 GMT
Mr Lomas, Sometimes you amaze me with some of your responses, though perhaps not for the reasons you might think. It would be interesting to know.Regarding how some people will do the 'prove it' thing as a passive-aggressive tactical insult to mask their own feelings of inadequacy due to their educational gaps or lack of knowledge by bluffing while trying to feed [far too often] their own fragile egos, you are quite correct. Indeed, not that I would ever accuse anyone of that ...I hope you're not too shocked that I agreed with you. No, but I may be surprised that you admit it Mr Lomas,
On the "it would be interesting to know" part, it's been my experience [more often than not] that people wish knowledge about certain subjects can tend to later regret what they've learned for a variety of reasons as varied as the individuals involved. Suffice it with since I can't sit directly across a table from you to actively assess your reactions, and since I honestly have no desire to inflict distress or harm upon others, there are subjects I prefer not to explain. In essence you may likely be far happier never knowing.
Regarding "I would never accuse anyone of that part", it wasn't an accusation, rather it was a comment on human motivation based upon decades of studying people, and the motivations that drive the things they do. My comprehension usually mirrors that of clinical psychologists [among others] and in those odd instances where there is deviation it helps me better understand the people I have no choice but to interact with in my surrounding environment. Yet no matter how long I've studied human nature there are things as elude me, making me suspect my intellect is insufficient for the task I have assigned myself. I honestly can't wrap my mind around greed, the need to control and / or dominate others, or the joy some derive from tormenting those who can't defend themselves. I kind of get it on an intellectual level, sort of, yet it makes absolutely no logical sense why some people are driven to perform acts that are not only antisocial but also contrary to survival of the species. Perhaps empathy is insufficient, or rather the level of empathy I have is too rudimentary /defective for me to properly comprehend what I'm observing in others.
Last but not least, you possibly being surprised at my admission of agreeing with you. While I don't always comment or tell people exactly what I'm thinking, as a rule I am honest and have no problem stating either my agreement or my disagreement with what others say or think. Within my paradigm is the knowledge that while I am not necessarily a nice person, it's easier for me and safer for others when I emulate 'nice' to the best of my ability. I also don't find needless flattery or lying useful since the first is often seen as a means for individuals to get what they haven't earned and the second generally tends to trap its practitioners due to it being almost impossible to keep track of subterfuge stacked on top of subterfuge ad nauseum [especially when many are contradictory to the others].
Perhaps it would be easier for both of us if you just accept that I agreed with you.
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Post by BlueAndGold on Mar 11, 2020 0:46:05 GMT
Dang! You boys must have an awful lot of time on your hands...
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Post by And still Kevin 2024 on Mar 11, 2020 15:03:37 GMT
I am not at all sure how a publisher asking for a query letter is "pretty much the same thing" as a publisher "insisting" on a letter of introduction. Who said insisting or even asking for? Are you being pedantic Ron? The former is SOP, the other is almost unheard of. What is SOP? You sample, by the way, is a very good way to start off a query letter! Indeed, it's a letter of introduction. Or nowadays, an email. However, due to almost all publishers now being on line there's no need for 'Cold Calling' them, because they usually state if they are accepting anything new.
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Post by And still Kevin 2024 on Mar 11, 2020 15:37:42 GMT
A writer can be experienced simply by producing a large body of work. Quite so. An impressive writer would be one who would write something memorable regardless of quantity. To take one example, think of the yeoman authors in the days of the pulps who would crank out stories and novels literally by the hundreds, They still do. (But what definition of yeoman are you using?) all of which may have been entertaining but forgetable. May not even be entertaining. They were certainly experienced. And become published and often sell in the tons. But an author such as, say, Margaret Mitchell A journalist. But how many know it was first a book? I have never read it so cannot comment on if it was impressive or not, and the film, which I think I have seen decades ago, is a romance is it not? Not my thing to find impressive or otherwise. or Harper Lee may write something lasting and meaningful in a very small body of work. Two novels, which I have never read, and don't recall seeing the film of one of them.
In fact I had to look the two names up. It's 2020 and only old people have possibly ever heard of them, even as films, apart from a still moderately famous quote. Don't also forget that both their novels cover very American subjects. I am not American. That's how I would define "experienced" vs "memorable." I asked you to define Impressive though, but are you saying those two names where not experienced writers? As in, they were not at all good at writing? They both appear to have been very well educated, one appears to have been mentored in it.On the other hand, Dan Brown is an experienced, and very successful, writer whose work is at the pulp level and eminently disposable. Never read them, never seen the films. The main gripe against them is they seem to have twisted many timelines. Whereas, 50 Shades is said to have been very poorly written.This isn't to say, of course, that an experienced writer cannot also be a memorable one. There are certainly many writers with large body of important work. But the only point I wanted to make was that "experienced" and "memorable" are not synonymous. I don't recall saying they are. I said that a publisher would prefer a story they don't have to spend months editing to make it readable, nevermind to make it make sense. Impressive story or not. But, what you may find memorable, or impressive may be simply what you like. I perhaps read a novel a month, and what I find memorable, you may hate. And to be honest. I often read some again, because many years have gone by since I first read them and I cannot fully recall what the story was about! Having said that, I do recall what many of Pratchett's books are about, but often read them a few times because they are so good. Do you read him? (He was a journalist, BTW.)
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Post by And still Kevin 2024 on Mar 11, 2020 15:40:15 GMT
"Dang! You boys must have an awful lot of time on your hands..."
Nah, not really, it does not take long to type an answer, and there are not many things to reply to! We are both retired anyway, plus it's Winter, plus in the UK we have perpetual storms and floods, so there's little to do but stay in!
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Post by ronmiller on Mar 11, 2020 15:40:30 GMT
I am not at all sure how a publisher asking for a query letter is "pretty much the same thing" as a publisher "insisting" on a letter of introduction. Who said insisting or even asking for? Are you being pedantic Ron?
You did, on March 9, when you posted: "Indeed. No doubt that's why they insist on a letter of introduction as the first approach. Or being taken to dinner by an agent."The former is SOP, the other is almost unheard of. What is SOP?
Standard Operating Procedure.You sample, by the way, is a very good way to start off a query letter! Indeed, it's a letter of introduction. Or nowadays, an email. However, due to almost all publishers now being on line there's no need for 'Cold Calling' them, because they usually state if they are accepting anything new.No. "Letter of introduction" has a very limited, very specific meaning. It is a letter from someone introducing you to someone else: "noun. a letter given by one person to another, as an introduction to a third party." A query letter, on the other hand, is "a formal letter sent to magazine editors, literary agents and sometimes publishing houses or companies by which a writer proposes an idea." If you meant it as a synonym for "query letter" than you used it improperly. In publishing, "letter of introduction" is never used to mean "query letter."
One reason the terms are very different is that a query letter can be sent by an established writer to their own publisher, if they are proposing a new book. For instance, the book I am working on right now is being published by a company for whom I have done more than twenty books already. I needed no introduction but I did need to send in a query letter describing what I'd hoped to do.
So now you know the difference.
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Post by And still Kevin 2024 on Mar 11, 2020 15:42:02 GMT
So, anyway, where were we?
OK, I will get a bit self-centred here. I don't publish via Ingram Spark and I have not been notified by KDP of any policy changes, so ...
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Post by And still Kevin 2024 on Mar 11, 2020 15:52:28 GMT
I am not at all sure how a publisher asking for a query letter is "pretty much the same thing" as a publisher "insisting" on a letter of introduction.
Who said insisting or even asking for? Are you being pedantic Ron?
You did, on March 9, when you posted: "Indeed. No doubt that's why they insist on a letter of introduction as the first approach. Or being taken to dinner by an agent."
Ah! Good, you do take notice of what I type! But they do insist on it. (State positively and assertively.)
The former is SOP, the other is almost unheard of.
What is SOP?
Standard Operating Procedure.
Oh, OK, thanks.
You sample, by the way, is a very good way to start off a query letter!
Indeed, it's a letter of introduction. Or nowadays, an email. However, due to almost all publishers now being on line there's no need for 'Cold Calling' them, because they usually state if they are accepting anything new.
No. "Letter of introduction" has a very limited, very specific meaning. It is a letter from someone introducing you to someone else: "noun. a letter given by one person to another, as an introduction to a third party." A query letter, on the other hand, is "a formal letter sent to magazine editors, literary agents and sometimes publishing houses or companies by which a writer proposes an idea." If you meant it as a synonym for "query letter" than you used it improperly.
No I did not. It's hardly still the 18th century. It can also be "hello, let me introduce MYSELF … "
One reason they are very different is that a query letter can be sent by a writer to their own publisher, if they are proposing a new book. For instance, the book I am working on right now is being published by a company that I have done more than twenty books for. I needed no introduction but I did need to send in a query letter describing what I'd hoped to do.
You don't need introducing to them then, do you? Even by introducing yourself. Your query letter was a proposal.
So now you know the difference.
No, you are just being extremely pedantic.
Anyway, what time is it where you are?
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Mar 11, 2020 16:13:51 GMT
Mr Lomas,
It's 12:11 EDT, 11:11 CDT as I type this. I prefer mil-time, as in time after 12 noon is marked 13:00, 14:00, and so on.
Ron is [unless I'm mistaken] in the Eastern Time Zone, US.
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Post by ronmiller on Mar 11, 2020 16:22:20 GMT
I am not at all sure how a publisher asking for a query letter is "pretty much the same thing" as a publisher "insisting" on a letter of introduction. Who said insisting or even asking for? Are you being pedantic Ron? You did, on March 9, when you posted: "Indeed. No doubt that's why they insist on a letter of introduction as the first approach. Or being taken to dinner by an agent." Ah! Good, you do take notice of what I type! But they do insist on it. (State positively and assertively.)
No. What they may insist on is a query letter. That is something entirely different from a letter of introduction. (And I used "may" since this is not something that is universally required.)You sample, by the way, is a very good way to start off a query letter! Indeed, it's a letter of introduction. Or nowadays, an email. However, due to almost all publishers now being on line there's no need for 'Cold Calling' them, because they usually state if they are accepting anything new. No. "Letter of introduction" has a very limited, very specific meaning. It is a letter from someone introducing you to someone else: "noun. a letter given by one person to another, as an introduction to a third party." A query letter, on the other hand, is "a formal letter sent to magazine editors, literary agents and sometimes publishing houses or companies by which a writer proposes an idea." If you meant it as a synonym for "query letter" than you used it improperly. No I did not. It's hardly still the 18th century. It can also be "hello, let me introduce MYSELF … "
That does not make it a letter of introduction. As I said, a letter of introduction and query letter are two different things with two different purposes. And those are as distinct today as they have ever been. (All you would have to do is show me where, in a publisher's submission guidelines where they ask for a "letter of introduction.")
If you want to use these terms without confusion, use them properly. It may sound pedantic, but it is not. I took your "letter of introduction" reference to mean that a publisher would want to have a prospective author introduced to them by a third party, probably an already established writer. And I suspect that anyone reading your post would have thought the same thing. Since this is something that is not required by any publisher, it is worthwhile clarifying.
It is especially worth clarifying since, as experienced professionals and semi-professionals, I think we have a responsibility to be correct in our references if our advice is to be trusted.Anyway, what time is it where you are?12:15 EDT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2020 16:34:18 GMT
"Dang! You boys must have an awful lot of time on your hands..." Nah, not really, it does not take long to type an answer, and there are not many things to reply to! We are both retired anyway, plus it's Winter, plus in the UK we have perpetual storms and floods, so there's little to do but stay in! Perpetual storm and floods? That's funny. I thought I was the only one with weather problems.
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