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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Mar 28, 2020 3:17:40 GMT
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Post by ronmiller on Mar 28, 2020 10:55:28 GMT
Most of the points these articles make are all too valid.
Too many authors leap into self-publishing with unrealistic expectations about self publishing and equally unrealistic ideas about traditional publishing.*
Among the great many missteps taken by self publishers is the failure to realize that they are about to become publishers...with all of the responsibilities of one. They have written a book but now they must take on the tasks of editing, copy editing, designing, formatting, art direction, marketing and advertising...and vanishingly few people are equally adept and experienced at all of these jobs. Some try to undertake them anyway, falling back on online tutorials for guidance or just sheer chutzpa. Or, worse, either hoping no one will notice the book's flaws or, if they do, overlook them.
*At least one of the articles falls into this trap, saying that traditional publishers are only interested in books that are marketable as though that were some sort of flaw. Well, duh. Even the self-published author hopes that their book will find a market.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Mar 28, 2020 15:32:24 GMT
Actually, I think a lot of people start writing due to very unrealistic expectations, whether it's Traditional or Self-Publishing. Far too many hopefuls think writing is an easy way to make money, kind of like the hopefuls who flock to LA because they're convinced they're going to beat the odds and make their fortunes via acting in Hollywood within a few weeks or months.
I recently shared the rough draft of a manuscript with Ron, as well as my spouse, realizing there are things that need to be fixed. The reason I shared it is to obtain an honest assessment from two professionals in very different fields as to whether the story in question is interesting enough to get the reader's attention. Ultimately the basis of marketing a book boils down to is it interesting enough to gain and maintain the reader's attention.
A lot of hopefuls can't produce a viable book regardless of which route they take, because they either don't have the innate talent required to craft a good tale, they lack the experience required to actually take a good tale and put it into words, or some combination of both. It doesn't mean those individuals can't learn how to do what they want to do, it does mean it won't be as easy as many people think because there is often a wide gulf separating a person's particular passion and what that individual actually has the innate talent to do well.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Mar 30, 2020 14:07:52 GMT
Actually, I think a lot of people start writing due to very unrealistic expectations, whether it's Traditional or Self-Publishing. Far too many hopefuls think writing is an easy way to make money, kind of like the hopefuls who flock to LA because they're convinced they're going to beat the odds and make their fortunes via acting in Hollywood within a few weeks or months.
They only witness the amazing success of books like Harry Potter and 50 Shades, they don't know about the 10,000s of other books, even from massive publishing houses, that struggle to even break even. But even so, many successful writers often cannot give up their day jobs until they have had published a few novels. And often the real riches only come if at least one is made in to a film or TV series.
I recently shared the rough draft of a manuscript with Ron, as well as my spouse, realizing there are things that need to be fixed. The reason I shared it is to obtain an honest assessment from two professionals in very different fields as to whether the story in question is interesting enough to get the reader's attention. Ultimately the basis of marketing a book boils down to is it interesting enough to gain and maintain the reader's attention.
I don't actually know many people who bother to read nowadays! I write SF and F and a mixture, and the only person I know who reads such stuff is one of my sons (the other reads nothing.) He will not read my stuff, and I suspect it's because he would hate to offer anything other than a positive opinion, whereas I would actually like both. But I myself do read a lot of stuff and believe my own is on a par with most of it. And I know what you are thinking, but I am actually incredibly self-critical.
A lot of hopefuls can't produce a viable book regardless of which route they take, because they either don't have the innate talent required to craft a good tale, they lack the experience required to actually take a good tale and put it into words, or some combination of both.
Aye. It's said there's a story in all of us. Which if meaning a life-story, is possibly true. But few have the ability to write it down, if any ability at all.
It doesn't mean those individuals can't learn how to do what they want to do,
It does take a great deal of patience to learn something new, more so the older you get, and many just cannot be bothered, but it does not stop many of them attempting to Self-Publish.
it does mean it won't be as easy as many people think because there is often a wide gulf separating a person's particular passion and what that individual actually has the innate talent to do well.
Very true. Unfortunately, taking on pros to do it for them is very expensive. In the still around world of Vanity Publishing, only the rich could really afford it. Rich and often deluded, so I suspect not many people actually used Vanity Publishing services.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Mar 30, 2020 14:30:42 GMT
Yeah, my father used to call me cynical at times, when the reality is I tend to look objectively at the probable odds of either success or failure of an endeavor and act accordingly.
It doesn't mean I won't take a chance when the odds in favor aren't great, it does mean I'm not starry-eyed and convinced something will happen the way I hope it will no matter what.
The newcomers who want to have their work read need to accept there is a price to pay one way or another, whether in terms of time spent learning their craft or money spent having others do what they can't.
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Post by Meoncemore on Mar 30, 2020 15:51:04 GMT
It's always best to prepare for both success or failier.
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Post by Metoo on Mar 30, 2020 15:51:54 GMT
And no I am not a robot.
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Post by ronmiller on Mar 30, 2020 16:26:49 GMT
I recently shared the rough draft of a manuscript with Ron, as well as my spouse, realizing there are things that need to be fixed. The reason I shared it is to obtain an honest assessment from two professionals in very different fields as to whether the story in question is interesting enough to get the reader's attention. Ultimately the basis of marketing a book boils down to is it interesting enough to gain and maintain the reader's attention. I don't actually know many people who bother to read nowadays! I write SF and F and a mixture, and the only person I know who reads such stuff is one of my sons (the other reads nothing.) He will not read my stuff, and I suspect it's because he would hate to offer anything other than a positive opinion, whereas I would actually like both. But I myself do read a lot of stuff and believe my own is on a par with most of it. And I know what you are thinking, but I am actually incredibly self-critical.Well, at least the science fiction and fantasy community still reads! A lot of hopefuls can't produce a viable book regardless of which route they take, because they either don't have the innate talent required to craft a good tale, they lack the experience required to actually take a good tale and put it into words, or some combination of both. Aye. It's said there's a story in all of us. Which if meaning a life-story, is possibly true. But few have the ability to write it down, if any ability at all. Indeed, indeed...sad, but too true. It doesn't mean those individuals can't learn how to do what they want to do, It does take a great deal of patience to learn something new, more so the older you get, and many just cannot be bothered, but it does not stop many of them attempting to Self-Publish.
And too many think that it's just a sort of ABC process, believing that all there is to learning how to write well is following a set of rules or guidelines, that if you do A and B, C will naturally follow.it does mean it won't be as easy as many people think because there is often a wide gulf separating a person's particular passion and what that individual actually has the innate talent to do well. Very true. Unfortunately, taking on pros to do it for them is very expensive. In the still around world of Vanity Publishing, only the rich could really afford it. Rich and often deluded, so I suspect not many people actually used Vanity Publishing services.Far, far more than you might think! One of the largest and longest-lasting of the traditional vanity presses, Vantage Press (which was shut down in 2012 following fraud charges after being in business for some 70 years), published more than 20,000 titles by more than 15,000 authors.
These large numbers meant that by sheer chance a few of their books actually proved to be modest successes...and one, Alice McDermott’s 1982 novel, A Bigamist’s Daughter, sold 100,000 copies in the Vantage Press edition (it was later picked up by Random House). McDermott went on to win a Pulitzer Prize. This was, of course, an extraordinary exception---in fact, in the entire long history of Vantage Press, almost certainly a sole exception. The vast majority of Vantage titles never sold a copy...at least beyond the author and their friends and family. One of the reasons that Vantage was able to publish such a very large number of authors was that they really were not all that expensive, publishing a book for as little as $5000---with services including everything from editing to cover art. (And, admittedly, they originally put out a very nice-looking product.) The was a lot of money in the 50s and 60s, of course (about twice that of a new car), but many people were willing to undertake the costs because of the promises that Vantage made and the glowing reports about successful authors. And, just like a vast number of today's self-published authors, a lot people will do pretty much anything just in order to see their book in print. Vanity publishers were so prevalent and employed by so many aspiring authors by 1975 that the New York Times had to publish this warning...
www.nytimes.com/1975/11/02/archives/vanity-books-pay-or-perish-authors-seek-fame-more-than-fortune-the.html
In any case, one did not have to be especially rich to contract with them. Most of Vantage's ads, for instance, appeared in popular, middle-class magazines and tabloids whose readers were certainly not wealthy. Here is a page from a 1989 National Geographic that includes the ad that Vantage Press ran everywhere...
Even today, it is not prohibitively expensive to have a book printed. For instance, one reputable printer I know of will produce 1000 copies of a 300-page hardcover book with dust jacket for just under $8000---or less than $8 a copy (by comparison, a similar book from Lulu would cost $16 per unit---and, unlike the traditional printer, the unit price will not go down if the quantity ordered goes up). Of course, one still has the problem of advertising, marketing and distribution...to say nothing of probably having to invest in editing, design, etc.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Mar 30, 2020 16:56:33 GMT
I always did hate it when someone teaching higher math couldn't explain things any better than: "A + B + A-Miracle-Occurs = E".
Seeing a process without understanding all the steps as go into said process often leads to a mess, whether it's plotting a trajectory, cooking a fine meal, or writing a book.
If someone doesn't understand the process and refuses to take the time to learn what steps to follow when, they aren't going to get very far.
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Post by ronmiller on Mar 30, 2020 19:26:37 GMT
I always did hate it when someone teaching higher math couldn't explain things any better than: "A + B + A-Miracle-Occurs = E". Seeing a process without understanding all the steps as go into said process often leads to a mess, whether it's plotting a trajectory, cooking a fine meal, or writing a book. If someone doesn't understand the process and refuses to take the time to learn what steps to follow when, they aren't going to get very far. It's partly that and partly the belief ingrained in far too many people that if you just follow directions you can do anything. Talent, skill and ability are simply not part of the equation. I have taught art classes in the past and as I have explained to my fellow instructors, anyone can learn to accurately put down onto paper what they see in front of them. That's fun for everyone and immensely gratifying. But you cannot teach someone how to be an artist. That is something you really have to be born with, I think. All harmonicas come with instructions...but not everyone who follows them becomes a Bob Dylan. I think that is where the miracle occurs in the equation. Following the step-by-step instructions in an online tutorial isn't enough, any more than filling in a paint by numbers kit makes you an artist. A+B < E
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Mar 30, 2020 21:00:38 GMT
I always did hate it when someone teaching higher math couldn't explain things any better than: "A + B + A-Miracle-Occurs = E". Seeing a process without understanding all the steps as go into said process often leads to a mess, whether it's plotting a trajectory, cooking a fine meal, or writing a book. If someone doesn't understand the process and refuses to take the time to learn what steps to follow when, they aren't going to get very far. It's partly that and partly the belief ingrained in far too many people that if you just follow directions you can do anything. Talent, skill and ability are simply not part of the equation. I have taught art classes in the past and as I have explained to my fellow instructors, anyone can learn to accurately put down onto paper what they see in front of them. That's fun for everyone and immensely gratifying. But you cannot teach someone how to be an artist. That is something you really have to be born with, I think. All harmonicas come with instructions...but not everyone who follows them becomes a Bob Dylan. I think that is where the miracle occurs in the equation. Following the step-by-step instructions in an online tutorial isn't enough, any more than filling in a paint by numbers kit makes you an artist. A+B < E Therein in lies the rub, if someone doesn't have at least a certain basic level of innate ability in certain fields it's passing strange and vanishingly rare to actually achieve an actual acceptable level of competence, much less mastery.
Writing is a derivative ability to certain major talents I have, and having been asked to teach what I do best I took a hard pass simply because some things [as you stated] one has to be born with. It also helps when you can catch those with the innate ability early enough to help guide their development to maximize those potentials. With what I do best, that's about age two, hence my reluctance to "teach" what I do best.
I could teach you how to utilize terrain as in see the patterns to adjust to avoid erosion while building up a certain amount of good topsoil through judicious planting, because you have a related ability. But I doubt I could teach you how to zero in the aim of a mortar tube sans instruments with four rounds or less because I have no idea of your "feel" for spatial trajectories -- kind of like seeing a target mathematically while being aware of relative elevations, barometric pressure, temperature, and both wind speed and direction at the same moment.
The miracle in the equation lies in the chance chance probabilities of nature, nurture, and context all coming together and producing someone who truly is a master of what they do. The odds of winning the lottery jackpot aren't far different.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Mar 31, 2020 1:22:32 GMT
Very true. Unfortunately, taking on pros to do it for them is very expensive. In the still around world of Vanity Publishing, only the rich could really afford it. Rich and often deluded, so I suspect not many people actually used Vanity Publishing services.
Far, far more than you might think! One of the largest and longest-lasting of the traditional vanity presses, Vantage Press (which was shut down in 2012 following fraud charges after being in business for some 70 years), published more than 20,000 titles by more than 15,000 authors.
That's not even one a week, really, but I wonder what percentage of books those 15,000 created?
These large numbers
It's not that many, Ron.
meant that by sheer chance a few of their books actually proved to be modest successes...and one, Alice McDermott’s 1982 novel, A Bigamist’s Daughter, sold 100,000 copies in the Vantage Press edition (it was later picked up by Random House). McDermott went on to win a Pulitzer Prize. This was, of course, an extraordinary exception---in fact, in the entire long history of Vantage Press, almost certainly a sole exception. The vast majority of Vantage titles never sold a copy...at least beyond the author and their friends and family. One of the reasons that Vantage was able to publish such a very large number of authors was that they really were not all that expensive, publishing a book for as little as $5000---with services including everything from editing to cover art. (And, admittedly, they originally put out a very nice-looking product.) The was a lot of money in the 50s and 60s, of course (about twice that of a new car), but many people were willing to undertake the costs because of the promises that Vantage made and the glowing reports about successful authors. And, just like a vast number of today's self-published authors, a lot people will do pretty much anything just in order to see their book in print. Vanity publishers were so prevalent and employed by so many aspiring authors by 1975 that the New York Times had to publish this warning...
How did even just that book become a success? In my mind Vanity Publishing places usually just turned a manuscript in to a book, often not doing any formatting unless paid extra, printed off a box full and sent them to the client, who then stored them in their loft forever. No ISBN, no nothing. It was not cheap because up until around 2010 there was no POD machines.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Mar 31, 2020 1:43:26 GMT
I don't know what annual inflation has done in the USA, but in the UK 1950 prices have risen by 3,349.22% to 2020. What would that 1950s $5,000 be worth now? £167,461? Price of a Ferrari. In the USA in the 1950s you could buy a good house for $8,000. In the UK the average was around £2,000. What I am saying is that $5,000 in the 1950s was a vast some of money. Vanity Publishing was a game for the very rich. 'Thankfully' the cost has gone down, a lot. But I suspect that's due to POD and perhaps digital creation. This is what Lulu ask >> www.lulu.com/services/packages
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2020 11:20:24 GMT
"anyone can learn to accurately put down onto paper what they see in front of them. That's fun for everyone and immensely gratifying. But you cannot teach someone how to be an artist."
Ron, I'm not sure that a person is born an artist, writer ,sculpter, singer, etc. I think that at a very early age there has to be an interest in art or some other other creative form. Take Leonardo, he started painting while he was still a very young boy. He was fascinated with art and continued drawing and painting. When he was 14 he became an apprentice to the artist Verrocchio.
I remember when I was teaching. In my Junior class was a 7 year old boy who was very good at drawing and painting. His father told me he had shown an interest in drawing at a very early age and his dad had encouraged this interest.
If a child starts drawing and painting or some other creative or learning activity at a very early age, their skill as an artist, singer etc. will also develop. I saw this phenomenon countless times in my teaching. The very young girl who would emulate her favourite singer and spend hours practicing, listening to her favourite songstress and copying them. As time went on she too became an excellent singer. Carol King spent hours on the piano thinking up tunes and songs when she was very young and she became famous.
I often wish I had started art at a young age, but I was not encouraged at either my boarding school or my grammar school. I think I would be better at drawing and painting if I had started earlier. I encouraged my grandchild when she showed an interest in drawing and painting. I have seen over the years the development she has made. Her friends tell me she is the best at art in her class. (she's intelligent but shows no interest in academia like my son did.)
My daughter, son, daughter-in law and I had the discussion of born with talent or nurturing interest and the creative activity. My son and I believe one can develop the creative activity if the child starts very young and shows an interest. My daughter and daughter-in -law felt as you do that an artist, singer, author etc. is born.
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Post by ronmiller on Mar 31, 2020 11:55:39 GMT
Very true. Unfortunately, taking on pros to do it for them is very expensive. In the still around world of Vanity Publishing, only the rich could really afford it. Rich and often deluded, so I suspect not many people actually used Vanity Publishing services. Far, far more than you might think! One of the largest and longest-lasting of the traditional vanity presses, Vantage Press (which was shut down in 2012 following fraud charges after being in business for some 70 years), published more than 20,000 titles by more than 15,000 authors. That's not even one a week, really, but I wonder what percentage of books those 15,000 created?
What percentage? 15,000 is 75% of 20,000. And one book a week is more than the majority of large traditional publishers. And remember that this goes back to the late 40s.These large numbers It's not that many, Ron.
15,000 authors is a lot more than the "not many people" you suggested. And remember that Vantage Press was only one of a great many vanity presses. meant that by sheer chance a few of their books actually proved to be modest successes...and one, Alice McDermott’s 1982 novel, A Bigamist’s Daughter, sold 100,000 copies in the Vantage Press edition (it was later picked up by Random House). McDermott went on to win a Pulitzer Prize. This was, of course, an extraordinary exception---in fact, in the entire long history of Vantage Press, almost certainly a sole exception. The vast majority of Vantage titles never sold a copy...at least beyond the author and their friends and family. One of the reasons that Vantage was able to publish such a very large number of authors was that they really were not all that expensive, publishing a book for as little as $5000---with services including everything from editing to cover art. (And, admittedly, they originally put out a very nice-looking product.) The was a lot of money in the 50s and 60s, of course (about twice that of a new car), but many people were willing to undertake the costs because of the promises that Vantage made and the glowing reports about successful authors. And, just like a vast number of today's self-published authors, a lot people will do pretty much anything just in order to see their book in print. Vanity publishers were so prevalent and employed by so many aspiring authors by 1975 that the New York Times had to publish this warning... How did even just that book become a success? In my mind Vanity Publishing places usually just turned a manuscript in to a book, often not doing any formatting unless paid extra, printed off a box full and sent them to the client, who then stored them in their loft forever. No ISBN, no nothing. It was not cheap because up until around 2010 there was no POD machines.
[Note: I seem to have been in error regarding The Bigamist's Daughter. McDermott worked as an editor at Vantage Press, which served as the model for the vanity press featured in her novel. In fact, the book was originally submitted to and accepted by a traditional publisher.]
Given that you have often brought up the fact that scores of authors began their careers via subsidized publishing, I am not sure why you are arguing against it now. There are certainly many authors who found it a viable and evidently affordable alternative...in fact, their reasons were usually pretty much the same as those authors today who turn to POD publishing.In any event, what is in your mind doesn't necessarily equate with what is so. To keep with the example of Vantage Press, they would advertise, promote and distribute the books they published---if the author paid for these services. And, yes, these books had ISBN numbers...a fact that took only minutes to discover, for instance here and here. What makes you think they wouldn't? A great many authors publishing through them planned (or at least hoped) to get their books into stores, which would have not been possible without an ISBN. Just as with today's POD author, the author going through a vanity press was responsible for all the costs of publishing their book. Of course, many if not most vanity presses were scams...but they are still around today in the form of many so-called "Assisted self-publishing services" who offer publishing "packages" of questionable quality and usually for exorbitant fees.
Probably the best alternative for an author who is reluctant to run the gauntlet of traditional publishing but also doesn't want to get hands-on with a DIY project is to turn to a small press. According to the SFWA, "Small presses often don’t require authors to be agented; they can produce excellent-quality books, and may give you personal attention you wouldn’t get from the majors. The tradeoff is less distribution clout and smaller marketing budgets–-but a book published by a good small press can be as credible a writing credit as a book published by one of the big houses, and is a reasonable way to begin a writing career."
As for your "not cheap" argument, I answered that in my last post.
And to do a book properly today is not an inexpensive proposition. The estimate for a novel of average length, according to Reedsy's survey, is nearly $7000, which does not include advertising and promotion, cost for ISBN, copyright registration, etc.
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