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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 11:14:22 GMT
Gone with the Wind and a whole bunch of other films and shows are being pulled by HBO.
I wonder what else they will pull.
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Post by benziger on Jun 11, 2020 12:42:33 GMT
The remove of the film is temporarily. Following HBO the film was "a product of its time" and depicted "ethnic and racial prejudices" that "were wrong then and are wrong today". It was also announced that the film will be returned to the streaming service at a later point with "a discussion of its historical context and a denouncement of those very depictions, but will be presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. If we are to create a more just, equitable and inclusive future, we must first acknowledge and understand our history."
This is an approach that I have been advocating for a long time: with children's books that are narrated, the narrator can do this (a preface may be necessary). With statues or street names, they need an new explanation. Another sign. The name, however, can stay. E.g. the gentleman who was recently thrown into a river in the UK: Instead of "great merchant and politician", the statue would have to be marked with the statement that he was not only "trading goods but also slaves". Only what is visible can be dealt with!
If a great old town had been financed with money from the slave trade, then future generations must also know and remember this - for example by passing the statue of the slave trader every day on their way to work. In my opinion, the fact that the statue had a different meaning at that time does not play a big role.
You can see that well with the Holocaust: As long as the death camps are there. As long as survivors can report. As long as it remains a subject you can't escape.
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Post by Karen's song on Jun 11, 2020 16:45:24 GMT
I've stopped using any product or watching any channel that promotes this behavior.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 22:08:57 GMT
The remove of the film is temporarily. Following HBO the film was "a product of its time" and depicted "ethnic and racial prejudices" that "were wrong then and are wrong today". It was also announced that the film will be returned to the streaming service at a later point with "a discussion of its historical context and a denouncement of those very depictions, but will be presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed. If we are to create a more just, equitable and inclusive future, we must first acknowledge and understand our history."
This is an approach that I have been advocating for a long time: with children's books that are narrated, the narrator can do this (a preface may be necessary). With statues or street names, they need an new explanation. Another sign. The name, however, can stay. E.g. the gentleman who was recently thrown into a river in the UK: Instead of "great merchant and politician", the statue would have to be marked with the statement that he was not only "trading goods but also slaves". Only what is visible can be dealt with!
If a great old town had been financed with money from the slave trade, then future generations must also know and remember this - for example by passing the statue of the slave trader every day on their way to work. In my opinion, the fact that the statue had a different meaning at that time does not play a big role.
You can see that well with the Holocaust: As long as the death camps are there. As long as survivors can report. As long as it remains a subject you can't escape.
That's fine for children, but I watched the film as an adult, and read the book as an adult. I would feel insulted if there were any denouncement prior to the movie or book. Seriously? Then they should put a denouncement on movies about Lucifer and witchcraft and serial killers and and ...basically everything.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 22:13:52 GMT
Movies and books are supposed to make you feel repulsed subliminally. If it is good art, it changes you because you realize something hurts and feels uncomfortable, and the characters are like your family and you are traumatized for life. That will not happen if I start watching a movie with a denouncement.
My brother and I watched the movie Dummy when we were very young. We were shaken to the core. Years later we had a mover who looked like the main character. My brother and I never hustled so hard helping the mover do his job. We didn't say a word to each other. We knew.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2020 7:35:33 GMT
E.g. the gentleman who was recently thrown into a river in the UK: Instead of "great merchant and politician", the statue would have to be marked with the statement that he was not only "trading goods but also slaves".
Absolutely benziger I couldn't agree more, that paints a clearer picture of the man. He was a product of his time, when to some people the black men were (like the Nazis said about certain groups of people) "untermensch"(inferior people") They treated these poor people like animals, herding then into cramped spaces and whipping them, if in their opinion, they got out of hand.
"Edward Colston (2 November 1636 – 11 October 1721) was an English merchant and Tory Member of Parliament, involved in the slave trade. He was also a philanthropist, donating money to charitable causes which supported those who shared his political and religious views, especially in his native city of Bristol. However he became involved in the slave trade through his work on the committees of the Royal African Company, which held a monopoly on the English trade in African slaves. He was Deputy Governor of the company in 1689–90. It is uncertain how much of his wealth stemmed from the slave trade." Wikipedia
The people of Bristol erected a statue to Colston because of his philanthropy, but ignored the fact that he was involved in the slave trade. (Again a half truth)
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Post by benziger on Jun 12, 2020 18:35:21 GMT
The people of Bristol erected a statue to Colston because of his philanthropy, but ignored the fact that he was involved in the slave trade. (Again a half truth) Right! If we now drown the evil slave trader (his statue) in the river, then in two years nobody will know who financed the church, the townhouse, the theatre and whatever else and where the money came from.
But if the statue remains in its prominent place and the sign is supplemented with some background information, people will still know in a hundred years time that someone was generous (thanks!), but earned his money in an ethically highly questionable way. This is probably more sustainable than sinking the statue or even demolishing the buildings financed with slave money.
It is the debate, the confrontation (with statues, street names, books, lectures, city tours, in school lessons, etc.) that brings us forward.
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Post by Deadshot on Jun 13, 2020 17:57:37 GMT
I think the sinking of the statue is obviously a product of it moment (anger at racial prejudice etc). People are angry. They may have not shown it in the best possible way but hopefully, no 'real harm' will follow.
I have a lot of my colleagues (academics) argue about freedom of expression, politically correct behaviour, politically correct paranoia etc. The fact is, if you allowed Hitler to have his statue because he did do some good things (he did so for some!) and say he was a product of his time and era, then we are letting ourselves open to a lot of issues here.
I think it is high time we took a moral stand and stopped allowing for shaky principles to keep us quiet. In the end, our societies will be better for it. The removal of Fawlty Towers episode (I can't remember which one now) now is the least of my worries. I think each episode is funny and typical of its time but our social and moral conduct have evolved.
Had I been born of any different colour of what I am now, I would find this dehumanising for me and my children/culture/literature/arts etc.
Anyway, enough politics. I hear Lulu got a bit political on their social media?
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Post by Karen's song on Jun 13, 2020 18:47:13 GMT
Movies and books are supposed to make you feel repulsed subliminally. If it is good art, it changes you because you realize something hurts and feels uncomfortable, and the characters are like your family and you are traumatized for life. That will not happen if I start watching a movie with a denouncement. My brother and I watched the movie Dummy when we were very young. We were shaken to the core. Years later we had a mover who looked like the main character. My brother and I never hustled so hard helping the mover do his job. We didn't say a word to each other. We knew. I agree about the denouncements. Have you heard some of lyrics in Rap music? M'fer this G'D that. Not to mention how they portray women, nothing but sex objects. Now I'm seeing on TV commercials and prime time TV men kissing. If that's your thing fine, but I don't won't to see it on the cable I paid for. And all the shows on TV portraying magic, witchcraft, demons, etc. Making it seem very normal. I can tell you from experience these things are not to be messed with but they are teaching our children that it's fine to dabble in. But again no warning before the show. Seems unfair many things are being removed because they are "offensive" to some but I'm offended by the above but could I have these things removed? Probably not. It's basically only one group that gets their way. They remove crosses, keep people from saying Merry Christmas in stores, ban reading the Bible in schools, but other religious books are ok. The list goes on. The rest of us suffer losing things that are a part of us while others get their way.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jun 13, 2020 19:06:54 GMT
I think the sinking of the statue is obviously a product of it moment (anger at racial prejudice etc). People are angry. They may have not shown it in the best possible way but hopefully, no 'real harm' will follow. I have a lot of my colleagues (academics) argue about freedom of expression, politically correct behaviour, politically correct paranoia etc. The fact is, if you allowed Hitler to have his statue because he did do some good things (he did so for some!) and say he was a product of his time and era, then we are letting ourselves open to a lot of issues here. I think it is high time we took a moral stand and stopped allowing for shaky principles to keep us quiet. In the end, our societies will be better for it. The removal of Fawlty Towers episode (I can't remember which one now) now is the least of my worries. I think each episode is funny and typical of its time but our social and moral conduct have evolved. Had I been born of any different colour of what I am now, I would find this dehumanising for me and my children/culture/literature/arts etc. Anyway, enough politics. I hear Lulu got a bit political on their social media? Actually Hitler was a product of the time and society he was born to, as were my grandfathers who were born a few years before him. The differences between Hitler on one hand and my grandfathers on the other were very great due to the societies they were born to as well as their respective upbringings.
On the grandfathers: One was a farmer, the other a railroader. One man never used profane language [other than when he realized he'd just crapped on an angry snake in the woods], the other's invective could make a sailor blush and turn away. Each in their own way did what they could to help the People of Color in their communities, even when their white contemporaries didn't like it. Yet today, a lot of people would say they were or must have been racists because of when they were born and where they lived. Neither man was perfect to be sure, but each took a stand to do what they thought was right, which included treating those of African descent as equals. Doing the right thing in a time when some people would gladly have killed them for it speaks to the character of both individuals. There are no statues of my grandfathers.
My point is it is critically important to understand the context of when someone lived, because simply knowing someone did something good or did something monstrous isn't enough because it's also important to understand why certain people did what they did [as much as it's possible for people of much later generations]. If today you have no understanding of why atrocities happened in the past, then tomorrow you're likely to see them happening again. Trying to erase the painful aspects history will likely make old ills repeat quicker.
Do as you will for it's up to you to choose. Me, I'll remember the times coworkers of African descent called me "N*****", because they saw me as an equal.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 19:23:54 GMT
Movies and books are supposed to make you feel repulsed subliminally. If it is good art, it changes you because you realize something hurts and feels uncomfortable, and the characters are like your family and you are traumatized for life. That will not happen if I start watching a movie with a denouncement. My brother and I watched the movie Dummy when we were very young. We were shaken to the core. Years later we had a mover who looked like the main character. My brother and I never hustled so hard helping the mover do his job. We didn't say a word to each other. We knew. I agree about the denouncements. Have you heard some of lyrics in Rap music? M'fer this G'D that. Not to mention how they portray women, nothing but sex objects. Now I'm seeing on TV commercials and prime time TV men kissing. If that's your thing fine, but I don't won't to see it on the cable I paid for. And all the shows on TV portraying magic, witchcraft, demons, etc. Making it seem very normal. I can tell you from experience these things are not to be messed with but they are teaching our children that it's fine to dabble in. But again no warning before the show. Seems unfair many things are being removed because they are "offensive" to some but I'm offended by the above but could I have these things removed? Probably not. It's basically only one group that gets their way. They remove crosses, keep people from saying Merry Christmas in stores, ban reading the Bible in schools, but other religious books are ok. The list goes on. The rest of us suffer losing things that are a part of us while others get their way. I was watching a survival reality show with my daughter several years ago and they showed a man getting a water hose in his rectum to cure him of the flu. I got rid of TV that same day. Nothing is safe to watch anymore.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 19:27:48 GMT
Movies and books are supposed to make you feel repulsed subliminally. If it is good art, it changes you because you realize something hurts and feels uncomfortable, and the characters are like your family and you are traumatized for life. That will not happen if I start watching a movie with a denouncement. My brother and I watched the movie Dummy when we were very young. We were shaken to the core. Years later we had a mover who looked like the main character. My brother and I never hustled so hard helping the mover do his job. We didn't say a word to each other. We knew. I agree about the denouncements. Have you heard some of lyrics in Rap music? M'fer this G'D that. Not to mention how they portray women, nothing but sex objects. Now I'm seeing on TV commercials and prime time TV men kissing. If that's your thing fine, but I don't won't to see it on the cable I paid for. And all the shows on TV portraying magic, witchcraft, demons, etc. Making it seem very normal. I can tell you from experience these things are not to be messed with but they are teaching our children that it's fine to dabble in. But again no warning before the show. Seems unfair many things are being removed because they are "offensive" to some but I'm offended by the above but could I have these things removed? Probably not. It's basically only one group that gets their way. They remove crosses, keep people from saying Merry Christmas in stores, ban reading the Bible in schools, but other religious books are ok. The list goes on. The rest of us suffer losing things that are a part of us while others get their way. They should be a denouncement before every show that shows a woman cooking in the kitchen, especially if she is wearing an apron. It's a sexist stereotype.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Jun 13, 2020 19:40:39 GMT
I turned down a naked cooking show gig once as no apron was included -- the pilot was titled "Frying Bacon Naked". Sometimes whether male or female you need an apron. www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSxv6IGBgFQ
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2020 20:31:10 GMT
I turned down a naked cooking show gig once as no apron was included -- the pilot was titled "Frying Bacon Naked". Sometimes whether male or female you need an apron. www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSxv6IGBgFQThat's funny. 😂
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Post by benziger on Jun 13, 2020 20:31:42 GMT
I agree about the denouncements. Have you heard some of lyrics in Rap music? M'fer this G'D that. Not to mention how they portray women, nothing but sex objects. Now I'm seeing on TV commercials and prime time TV men kissing. If that's your thing fine, but I don't won't to see it on the cable I paid for. And all the shows on TV portraying magic, witchcraft, demons, etc. Making it seem very normal. I can tell you from experience these things are not to be messed with but they are teaching our children that it's fine to dabble in. But again no warning before the show. Seems unfair many things are being removed because they are "offensive" to some but I'm offended by the above but could I have these things removed? Probably not. It's basically only one group that gets their way. They remove crosses, keep people from saying Merry Christmas in stores, ban reading the Bible in schools, but other religious books are ok. The list goes on. The rest of us suffer losing things that are a part of us while others get their way. Unfortunately there are always people who very intolerantly demand tolerance towards them. With Hans Küng's global ethic and the Golden Rule, there are simply rules that make it possible to regulate things without anyone feeling outcast, even if one of them wants nothing to do with religion.
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