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Post by BlueAndGold on Sept 14, 2020 12:48:46 GMT
That is all excellent information, Ron. Thank you.
I think it applies mainly to those who write traditional books of general interest or fiction in prose.
In B&G's case, the products are all rhyming poetry and the potential audience is more likely than not very small. Publishing of these projects was never expected to result in massive sales. So I suspect self-publishing is really a niche that fits B&G's products well. There isn't any harder thing to sell Than poetry - even the kind writ well. A hundred million poet authors write; But only precious few buyers will bite.
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Post by See-Ya - NLI on Sept 14, 2020 12:53:11 GMT
Another consideration, you don't always have to print and mail a MS and related material to a TP. Something about uploading the file including cover letter and synopsis in rich text format comes to mind. You might wait several months to a year before hearing your submission was accepted , but that gives you time to write something else.
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Post by BlueAndGold on Sept 14, 2020 13:00:48 GMT
Good point. Sometimes it takes more than a year to write the next one.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 14, 2020 15:46:54 GMT
The stigma is in a way understandable. It's always assumed that if a potential book is worthy then it will be taken up by a publishing house. But there's many an example of books that became top sellers that were rejected by many for years. Many writers give up due to that. I mean, how long is considered too long to keep trying? Note that often those writers had agents. How long before they give up? They have to eat. It's true that many books were initially rejected---often many times---before being finally published, including books that went on to become best-sellers. The lesson to be taken from this is not that one should immediately turn to self-publishing but to persevere, as the authors of those books did. Often, many examples of the type were before POD and places like Lulu. Not before Vanity Publishing, though, but it does take a degree of confidence, not just vanity, to believe it's worth taking that route. There's hardly any financial risk at all using places like Lulu. Let's face it, there are many many advantages to being taken up by an actual publishing house. No least because they will also market the book. It's getting retailers and people to buy it that's often the real expense.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 14, 2020 16:11:05 GMT
The thought of printing a manuscript and sending it to some publishing house in New York or elsewhere to be put into the hands of strangers never even crossed my little walnut brain. Self-publishing just seemed so much easier and quicker to me. Perhaps I got it all wrong. Well, here are a few things to think about... Few, if any, publishing houses want to see a complete MS (otherwise they would be buried under reams of paper). Most want to initially see only an outline and perhaps the first chapter or chapters. This is perfectly reasonable since if an author can't write something readable for 50 pages the remaining 200 are probably not going to be much better. Exactly. And most publishing houses often will only take on a certain number of potential sellers per year. Any first approach after that number, is rarely even opened.Having your book looked at by strangers is far from a bad thing, especially when those strangers are seasoned experts in writing, editing and publishing. It's not just that, they also know their market perfectly, so will know what will sell well. Accountants and advertising people also often play a big part. Not that they always get it right! But as a note to that, there's no point approaching a publisher of cookery books with a horror book. Even if some recipes can be horrific. While a rejection will rarely be accompanied by a critique, if your book is accepted it will go through a vetting process of immense value. I wonder how many people realise that they will also be looking for a level of English that does not need a lot of correcting. It's possibly a surprise to some that quite a few writers actually employ a secretary to sort out a pile of notes. Not to mention in the old days to type out a hand-written manuscript.Which leads to the final comment, which is that self-publishing usually means self-editing True, and the rest. Simply not having page numbers where none should be, for example. and I don't think that any author, no matter how experienced, is objective enough to edit their own work. Not even ones who have actually been editors? (It also helps to be one's own worse critic). Actually, many top-level top sellers of fiction are possibly so good at English (or whatever) all their editors need do is recommend potential adjustments to the actual story. Not that a writer need take notice of them. The process of independent, objective editing is something that far too many self-published books lack---either because the author cannot afford it or because they simply ignore it---with the result that self-publishing has the stigma it has today. Apart from not being able to afford specialists, I think there are a number of semi-literate self-publishers who do not even realise how bad their text is. It being able to self-publish for peanuts now is both an advantage and a disadvantage. However, according to Paul's blog at Lulu, no one cares about the contents.This isn't to say that every book needs to be commercially published. There are many for which self-publishing is ideal. Books of a special interest, for instance, where the audience might be very small. Family or local histories would be one example of this. Self-publishing is nothing new. Many schools used to have one of those strange printing things that looked like a mangle, then came the photocopier, not to mention the scanner. And there's all this stuff >> www.staples.com/book+binding/directory_book%2520binding?deptFid=Department_3A_22Binding!Spines_22
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 14, 2020 16:15:50 GMT
It can be worse than that. Even when looking for an agent, usually first you have to send a letter to ask them if they have capacity to take you on. If you get an affirmative it's accompanied by a request for a synopsis. If they like that, they ask for a few sample chapters. If they approve of those they will ask for the complete manuscript, and so on, and even today some insist on printed matter, treble spaced with wide margins. All that also applies when approaching a publishing house. It can all takes months, and that is even if you do find places that want to see your works, if not, try try again, someplace else. Both examples usually have websites nowadays, and more often than not they will say No More Submissions At This Time, which if nothing else, saves you a stamp.
So indeed, self-publishing is the easy way. Sort of. Going that way does not give you the advantage of all the experts publishers employ, unless you yourself contract out, and why so much SP stuff is not too good, because they don't. But, if going the SP way would have cost you anything up to 10 grand, would you have bothered? Many people think that one simply goes out and hires an agent. The truth is that finding an agent involves exactly the same process as finding a publisher. You have to submit your work and the agent has to accept it. Because most agencies are very small...many consist of just a single person...they have to necessarily be much more selective than a publisher---making it more difficult, in many ways, than approaching a publisher directly. I am sure that's what I said. And the latter course is more possible than many think. Not every publisher will accept only agented submissions. Even some of the top traditional publishers are glad to see unsolicited submissions. Writer's Guide is a good source of information regarding who does and does not accept unagented work. Many publisher's websites say different. If you do not hit them at the right time, they have filled their need for the year and will take no more, but that should not mean you never look at that site again because once a year they may be accepting. It can be a very narrow window.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 14, 2020 16:20:03 GMT
One thing that many may not realise is that at times a commissioning editor often has to fight the rest of the team to get something published he/she believes in. Often it's a fight with the accountants and marketing people. Cost of total production = potential returns.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 14, 2020 16:23:24 GMT
Another consideration, you don't always have to print and mail a MS and related material to a TP. Something about uploading the file including cover letter and synopsis in rich text format comes to mind. You might wait several months to a year before hearing your submission was accepted , but that gives you time to write something else. True, I was on about the 'good old days'. But even now some editors prefer paper, I have no idea why. And it can be costly in posting because they prefer it treble spaced and huge margins, to scribble notes in.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 14, 2020 16:25:41 GMT
Another consideration, you don't always have to print and mail a MS and related material to a TP. Something about uploading the file including cover letter and synopsis in rich text format comes to mind. You might wait several months to a year before hearing your submission was accepted , but that gives you time to write something else. I don't think there's any rules to say you cannot approach many publishers at a time. Who knows? They may all bite, then you could play one against the other.
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Post by See-Ya - NLI on Sept 14, 2020 16:35:26 GMT
Many publishers won't deal with a MS that's been submitted to multiple publishing houses at the same time, simply to avoid the playing one off against the other among other things.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 14, 2020 16:52:13 GMT
Huh? What on earth is that big yellow thing about? And the Approve button?
Anyway, to answer see-yer. How would they know? Until the moment more do wish to take it on?
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Post by ronmiller on Sept 14, 2020 17:18:28 GMT
That is all excellent information, Ron. Thank you.
I think it applies mainly to those who write traditional books of general interest or fiction in prose.
In B&G's case, the products are all rhyming poetry and the potential audience is more likely than not very small. Publishing of these projects was never expected to result in massive sales. So I suspect self-publishing is really a niche that fits B&G's products well. There isn't any harder thing to sell Than poetry - even the kind writ well. A hundred million poet authors write; But only precious few buyers will bite.Indeed. His books are very much excellent candidates for self-publishing because of their special interest.
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Post by ronmiller on Sept 14, 2020 17:19:56 GMT
Another consideration, you don't always have to print and mail a MS and related material to a TP. Something about uploading the file including cover letter and synopsis in rich text format comes to mind. You might wait several months to a year before hearing your submission was accepted , but that gives you time to write something else.Every publisher has their own set of submission guidelines. The best idea is to follow them explicitly. You main point is an excellent one. Instead of spending months trying to promote and market your book you could instead be spending the time writing another one.
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Post by ronmiller on Sept 14, 2020 17:23:56 GMT
and I don't think that any author, no matter how experienced, is objective enough to edit their own work. Not even ones who have actually been editors? (It also helps to be one's own worse critic). Actually, many top-level top sellers of fiction are possibly so good at English (or whatever) all their editors need do is recommend potential adjustments to the actual story. Not that a writer need take notice of them.RM The editing I am talking about is more along the lines of content editing rather than looking for typos and bad punctuation. Even at that, it is hard to be wholly objective about one's own work, regardless of what one's experience might have been. An independent, objective viewpoint is always of value.
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Post by ronmiller on Sept 14, 2020 17:30:05 GMT
Many people think that one simply goes out and hires an agent. The truth is that finding an agent involves exactly the same process as finding a publisher. You have to submit your work and the agent has to accept it. Because most agencies are very small...many consist of just a single person...they have to necessarily be much more selective than a publisher---making it more difficult, in many ways, than approaching a publisher directly. I am sure that's what I said.
RM I was just underscoring what you had written. And the latter course is more possible than many think. Not every publisher will accept only agented submissions. Even some of the top traditional publishers are glad to see unsolicited submissions. Writer's Guide is a good source of information regarding who does and does not accept unagented work. Many publisher's websites say different. If you do not hit them at the right time, they have filled their need for the year and will take no more, but that should not mean you never look at that site again because once a year they may be accepting. It can be a very narrow window.
RM There are major traditional publishers who are happy to see an unsolicited submission and there are those who will return one unopened. For that matter, there are very small independent publishers who will only consider work submitted through an agent. That's why it's wise to do all the necessary homework before contacting a publisher. Each one will have its own submission guidelines. Very often, a publisher will also have an explanation of exactly the sorts of books they are looking for and what they are not. You are right, too, in saying that most publishers do have a sort of quota...but the only way to discover whether or not they have reached that is to either contact them or see if there is any sort of announcement to that effect online.
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