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Post by ronmiller on Sept 15, 2020 19:02:57 GMT
Well, no. It means simultaneous submissions to other publishers. They obviously may not approve of it, in case they miss something good snapped up by another place while they are hesitating, but there's no binding rules that say you cannot, and it can take months, even a year, to get a decision, never mind any reply, and while you wait to be ignored or rejected time has been wasted, and you have to start all over again. It's no doubt why you hear "well, it took 5 years to get this published!"
Another point to remember is when an editor [whose publishing company doesn't do simultaneous submissions] goes through what made it through the slush pile, decides they like your gemstone quality story, and then hears you got an offer from another publisher, odds are they won't want to hear from you again for a long while if ever.
RM Something you never want to have happen. But it would be hard to blame an editor for not wanting to work with an author who is not only annoying but can't follow simple directions.
Unless the work is in a niche under-served by TP, , unless the writer already has a large established following, odds are it will go further in terms of sales with a large established publishing house than with say, Lulu Press. Yes, waiting to hear back can be irritating, but when a writer doesn't have the money to do all the things [think content editing, marketing, advertising, and so on] says screw it and decides to Self-Pub instead of waiting, odds are the story in question isn't going nearly as far as it would have if the writer had decided to submit and wait.
RM To the advantages you list---not one of which costs the author a single penny---there is also an advance, which the author gets to keep even if the book never (heaven forbid) sells a single copy.
And yes, it can take a long time...even after a book has been accepted. My most recent commercially published book was accepted by the fifth publisher I tried. I got a contract last December and the book won't be out until this coming April. But it's not like I've been sitting around doing nothing else, either. And a large publisher isn't always necessarily the only venue you might want to look for. There are a great many smaller houses that produce first-class books with national distribution and who pay well (it's possible that an advance from a smaller publisher may be less, but royalty percentages will be more or less the same as with a major company).
If someone is going to try the TP route with their work, the best advice is get the writers' guide Ron mentioned, find out what the publisher wants to see, then follow the instructions for each as close to perfectly as possible. Whether it's horses, Carolina Reaper peppers, or hand grenades, paying attention to what's going on will usually save you a lot of grief.
RM One of the great things about the Writer's Market is that it is cross-indexed, allowing you to zero in on just those publishers who might be most likely to be interested in your book. And it keeps you from sending your urban lesbian vampire novel to a publisher of Christian children's books.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Sept 15, 2020 19:38:11 GMT
Having gotten rejections in the past, at this point I think writing when I can is a good way to pass the time when not taking care of other things.
Who knows, perhaps a pseudo-romance ghost-mortal coming-of-age story will get snapped up. As for sending an "urban lesbian vampire lesbian novel to a publisher of Christian children's books", while humorous in a way it might tend to have editors from different publishers chatting about the writer who was too oblivious to seek out the best fit.
Easier to do some research early on and avoid most potential issues than needing to clean up a big mess afterward, which far too many people overlook. This is kind of why Self Publishing has a stigma, all the people who do the wrong things for the wrong reasons.
As well when submitting a MS writers should consider the editors don't expect absolute perfection, though I'd imagine it's a pleasant surprise to get work from unknown writers that doesn't need a kilo-crap-ton of correction. Weed out as many typo / error problems as possible so the work is readable, but don't try to make it perfect because it's not your ideal of perfection that's important, but the reader's.
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Post by ronmiller on Sept 15, 2020 22:04:16 GMT
Having gotten rejections in the past, at this point I think writing when I can is a good way to pass the time when not taking care of other things. Who knows, perhaps a pseudo-romance ghost-mortal coming-of-age story will get snapped up. As for sending an "urban lesbian vampire lesbian novel to a publisher of Christian children's books", while humorous in a way it might tend to have editors from different publishers chatting about the writer who was too oblivious to seek out the best fit. Easier to do some research early on and avoid most potential issues than needing to clean up a big mess afterward, which far too many people overlook. This is kind of why Self Publishing has a stigma, all the people who do the wrong things for the wrong reasons. As well when submitting a MS writers should consider the editors don't expect absolute perfection, though I'd imagine it's a pleasant surprise to get work from unknown writers that doesn't need a kilo-crap-ton of correction. Weed out as many typo / error problems as possible so the work is readable, but don't try to make it perfect because it's not your ideal of perfection that's important, but the reader's. They are looking for a good story with interesting characters that is well told. Typos (unless they are so ubiquitous as to make the thing unreadable) are not an issue. Those are cosmetic details that can be easily cleaned up.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Sept 15, 2020 22:43:31 GMT
Having gotten rejections in the past, at this point I think writing when I can is a good way to pass the time when not taking care of other things. Who knows, perhaps a pseudo-romance ghost-mortal coming-of-age story will get snapped up. As for sending an "urban lesbian vampire lesbian novel to a publisher of Christian children's books", while humorous in a way it might tend to have editors from different publishers chatting about the writer who was too oblivious to seek out the best fit. Easier to do some research early on and avoid most potential issues than needing to clean up a big mess afterward, which far too many people overlook. This is kind of why Self Publishing has a stigma, all the people who do the wrong things for the wrong reasons. As well when submitting a MS writers should consider the editors don't expect absolute perfection, though I'd imagine it's a pleasant surprise to get work from unknown writers that doesn't need a kilo-crap-ton of correction. Weed out as many typo / error problems as possible so the work is readable, but don't try to make it perfect because it's not your ideal of perfection that's important, but the reader's. They are looking for a good story with interesting characters that is well told. Typos (unless they are so ubiquitous as to make the thing unreadable) are not an issue. Those are cosmetic details that can be easily cleaned up. I have a few to finish that might be of the interesting well-told persuasion.Back to the laundry then heating dinner.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 16, 2020 0:17:38 GMT
Fortunately, not every publisher has a prejudice against simultaneous submissions. Many are perfectly fine with it...though it is a courtesy to tell them if you are doing that.
Indeed, and there's little they can do about it.
This is where homework comes in: a publisher's submission guidelines will b explicit about whether or not they accept simultaneous submissions.
That still refers to simultaneous submissions to the same company, which is sure to get their backs up.
If they prefer not to and you don't want your book tied up, then simply give them a pass and send your book somewhere else.
Ditto.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 16, 2020 0:29:42 GMT
I haven't forgotten.
It seems you have.
But I don't think that you ever told us just what magazine you were an editor on,
What? you have heard of every single magazine ever published? But most were subscription only direct sales, and in the UK, so it's unlikely you have heard of them. However, what does it matter which? (In fact I was a publishing partner of one of them, too). I also wrote for around six others.
or what sort of editing you did.
What do editors do?
For instance, my daughter was the managing editor of a magazine and as such had little to do with editing content.
What did she do then if not that? Perhaps the job titles mean something different in the USA?
And, frankly, I think that if I were hoping to get my book published in the best shape and at the highest polish it could get, I would rather depend on the advice of an experienced, knowledgeable editor than on whether or not the local grocery clerk "likes" it.
That was not my point. Which was, it depends what you are asking. It was you who brought up some grocery clerk, whatever that is.
One would be hard put to find a self-published book so godawful that it doesn't get at least one "like" from someone...a score which means absolutely nothing.
Why even bring that example up then?
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 16, 2020 0:33:10 GMT
You all seem to be missing the point. I did not mean to the same company, but to many companies at the same time.
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Post by ronmiller on Sept 16, 2020 11:12:00 GMT
Fortunately, not every publisher has a prejudice against simultaneous submissions. Many are perfectly fine with it...though it is a courtesy to tell them if you are doing that. Indeed, and there's little they can do about it.
RM Well, if they find out that you were doing that they could rightly reject your submission. This is where homework comes in: a publisher's submission guidelines will b explicit about whether or not they accept simultaneous submissions. That still refers to simultaneous submissions to the same company, which is sure to get their backs up.
RM You are sticking to this idea for some reason. "Simultaneous submissions" doesn't refer to multiple submissions to the same publisher and it is not what is meant when a publisher says they prefer an author to not make simultaneous submissions. I have not a clue as to why you would think otherwise.
You can, of course, submit more than one book proposal to the same publisher---I have done that.
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Post by ronmiller on Sept 16, 2020 11:47:56 GMT
I haven't forgotten. It seems you have. But I don't think that you ever told us just what magazine you were an editor on, What? you have heard of every single magazine ever published? But most were subscription only direct sales, and in the UK, so it's unlikely you have heard of them. However, what does it matter which? (In fact I was a publishing partner of one of them, too). I also wrote for around six others.
RM Goodness! So defensive! I was only curious as to what magazine...and what sort of magazine...you edited. You are the one who so often brings up this experience so it seemed to be a reasonable question to ask. or what sort of editing you did. What do editors do?
RM I am surprised you have to ask...but there are different sorts of editors doing different things. For instance, you often refer to an acquiring editor, whose duties would be to vet submissions and pass them along---a very different job than, say a copy editor. A managing editor would also have a different role to play than an editor who deals directly with an author in working on a MS. For instance, my daughter was the managing editor of a magazine and as such had little to do with editing content. What did she do then if not that? Perhaps the job titles mean something different in the USA?
RM "In the United States, a managing editor of a newspaper, magazine or other periodical publication oversees and coordinates the publication's editorial activities. The managing editor can hire, fire, or promote staff members. Other responsibilities include creating and enforcing deadlines. In the United Kingdom a managing editor tends to manage budget, staffing, and scheduling for a publication, and may have equivalent ranking to a deputy editor in the organization's structure."And, frankly, I think that if I were hoping to get my book published in the best shape and at the highest polish it could get, I would rather depend on the advice of an experienced, knowledgeable editor than on whether or not the local grocery clerk "likes" it. That was not my point. Which was, it depends what you are asking. It was you who brought up some grocery clerk, whatever that is.
RM What in the world was your point, then? The subject was, as I recall, that the opinion of a knowledgeable, experienced editor was valuable. Here is the exchange:
RM: Likewise, the opinion of someone with years of successful professional experience working with authors and their books is not the same as the opinion of your grocery store clerk. You: It depends what you want an opinion on. Does the store clerk like it, for example.
In short, you seemed to be equating the clerk's opinion with that of the editor. Indeed, it may depend on "what you want an opinion on," but it was not general opinions of likes or dislikes we were talking about. It was the value of an educated opinion on the development of a book. And even in the example you gave---"it depends on what you want an opinion on"---I would think that someone educated and experienced in editing, writing, reading and literature "liking" my book would be more meaningful than my plumber liking it (not that I don't appreciate it when anyone likes one of my books).
In short, there should be no question regarding "it depends what you are asking" since the subject at hand is specifically opinions that relate directly to the improvement of the quality of a book. That is the opinion being sought. One would be hard put to find a self-published book so godawful that it doesn't get at least one "like" from someone...a score which means absolutely nothing. Why even bring that example up then?RM It was you who brought it up when you said "It depends what you want an opinion on. Does the store clerk like it, for example." Whether a store clerk "likes" your book or not is as irrelevant and useless as a "like" on Amazon. (Unless, of course, you have written a book about grocery store clerking and want an insider's opinion.) Of what possible use to you is that opinion, other than to make your ego feel good? What we were talking about, and what you seem to have lost the thread of, is the subject of opinions that are of value in developing and polishing your book. And in that case, not all opinions are equal.
For instance, I might have shown the MS of my most recent book to a clerk in a local store. They probably would have loved it and said, "Go ahead and print it!" That would have been a flattering opinion but if I had done that, the book would have been riddled with embarrassing errors of all sorts, from grammatical and stylistic to factual. And it was a MS that I myself thought was as clean as a whistle. I had been over it word for word a dozen times and it looked perfect to me. But it took an experienced, knowledgeable editor---as well as a crossreader and fact-checker---to enable the book to achieve its final polish. For instance, the crossreader enabled me to see places where I was too familiar with a subject and didn't include enough information for someone new to the topic.
So it is not until after a book has gone though that sort of gauntlet will I show it to friends, family...and clerks.
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Post by ronmiller on Sept 16, 2020 11:52:39 GMT
You all seem to be missing the point. I did not mean to the same company, but to many companies at the same time. Quoting you from just a few hours ago: "That ["simultaneous submissions"] still refers to simultaneous submissions to the same company, which is sure to get their backs up." Or from a few days ago: Me: "There is no consistent rule, but many publishers, in their submission guidelines, will state that they will not consider simultaneous submissions. Again, the safest thing to do is to carefully read a publisher's submission guidelines and follow them to the letter." You: "That often means to themselves. They are busy enough without bombarding them with persistent approaches, akin to spam."
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Sept 16, 2020 12:02:22 GMT
You all seem to be missing the point. I did not mean to the same company, but to many companies at the same time. No, I didn't miss your point though you apparently didn't get the point others were making.
Bottom line is if you're submitting your work to a publisher, follow the publisher's instructions for submission.
The reason being if they don't want simultaneous submissions but you do it regardless, it's likely they'll reject your future submissions if you burn them.
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Post by ronmiller on Sept 16, 2020 13:56:17 GMT
You all seem to be missing the point. I did not mean to the same company, but to many companies at the same time. No, I didn't miss your point though you apparently didn't get the point others were making.
Bottom line is if you're submitting your work to a publisher, follow the publisher's instructions for submission.
The reason being if they don't want simultaneous submissions but you do it regardless, it's likely they'll reject your future submissions if you burn them.
Exactly. Some publishers don’t like simultaneous submissions because of the risk of going to all of the trouble of reading and considering a submission, contacting the author and getting a reply that, oh, I've already signed with someone else. The publisher will feel that they have wasted their time...and probably will have no desire to engage in a bidding war---which they may feel you are actually trying to start. And the publisher who accepted your book may not be happy about this, either, and may decide to rescind their offer. Since some publishers are perfectly OK with simultaneous submissions and you do send in your proposal to more than one, be sure to tell the others if you make a sale to one of those you submitted to. That way they will know to not consider your book. Most publishers are OK with multiple submissions (not the same thing as simultaneous submissions)---that is, when an author sends in more than one project at a time to a publisher. Some publishers are uncomfortable with this, though, so it is best to check first.
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Post by Retread-Retired-Cameron on Sept 16, 2020 18:57:06 GMT
Ron,
You nailed the point Mr Lomas thought we missed: simultaneous submissions are one MS to multiple publishers, while multiple submissions are multiple MS to the same publisher.
Another thing to think on is people in the publishing industry are like people in other fields of endeavor, as in they tend to communicate with each other.
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Post by ronmiller on Sept 16, 2020 22:00:59 GMT
Ron, You nailed the point Mr Lomas thought we missed: simultaneous submissions are one MS to multiple publishers, while multiple submissions are multiple MS to the same publisher. Another thing to think on is people in the publishing industry are like people in other fields of endeavor, as in they tend to communicate with each other. You are right. Unlike many other industries, publishing really is a kind of community...even when the major publishers are concerned. All the editors know one another.
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Post by And Kevin 2024 on Sept 17, 2020 0:03:13 GMT
Fortunately, not every publisher has a prejudice against simultaneous submissions. Many are perfectly fine with it...though it is a courtesy to tell them if you are doing that. Indeed, and there's little they can do about it.
RM Well, if they find out that you were doing that they could rightly reject your submission. This is where homework comes in: a publisher's submission guidelines will b explicit about whether or not they accept simultaneous submissions. That still refers to simultaneous submissions to the same company, which is sure to get their backs up.
RM You are sticking to this idea for some reason.
That is because that is what is constantly being assumed.
"Simultaneous submissions" doesn't refer to multiple submissions to the same publisher
Really, then why do you and others keep assuming it does then?
and it is not what is meant when a publisher says they prefer an author to not make simultaneous submissions.
Make your mind up.
I have not a clue as to why you would think otherwise.
Do you not read all of the replies?
You can, of course, submit more than one book proposal to the same publisher---I have done that.
You have just contradicted this and at least one of your other postings.
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